FBI Chooses the 9mm!

[The_Shadow]

Will this work or will they have yet another shoot out and more testing? 
http://concealednation.org/2014/10/fbi-decides-on-9mm-as-their-1-choice-and-have-tons-of-science-behind-their-decision/

[sqlbullet]

Certainly in the Miami shootout loads of the day proved ineffective, though the agents ability to fire it accurately under fire was pretty good.  They got hits, the hits just didn't incapacitate the aggressors.

If they had been carrying modern +p 9mm ammo, they would have been better.  Certainly 40S&W or full power 10mm auto would have done the job with much less agent carnage.  Full house 10mm would not have failed to reach vital organs.

But, the big unknown is would they have been as successful at hitting their targets?

I don't begrudge them going to the 9mm.  I personally think a great standard would be 10mm with a variety of loads, from 1100 fps 165 gr at the weak end up to 1200 fps 220 grain at the top end.  Then, let them shoot them all in qualification and be approved for the one that met a standard for speed and accuracy.

But, that creates logistics problems.

[EdMc]

And at the same time the military is wanting to go away from 9mm. Yeah, I know, by Geneva Convention they have to use FMJ ammo so it changes the requirements. For some reason I don't buy into their wear on firearms argument. I doubt handguns make up a significant part of the FBI's yearly budget. Easier for 'all' to shoot and a smaller frame are valid along with improved bullets. Still, they'll reassess in five years or so...it's the government way.

[harrygunner]

Well, either the "modern" 9mm is far ahead of the 1980's version, or the FBI is going in circles.

[P33v3]

I'd be perfectly comfortable carrying a nine loaded with Federal 9BPLE +P+

[Patriot]

 

Their new study contradicts their old study that showed specifically that different rounds had different capabilities, which is why they had selected 10mm.

This smells of budget cuts and agents that can't shoot.

[4949shooter]

Perhaps there will be a lot of surplus .40 ammo cheap!

[Buckeye 50]

Guys, this is really UNscientific, but it is just hard for me to believe that even a marginally placed shot in a strong 10mm load of Gold Dots or XTP's (copper hollow points, etc.) is not going to do better than a 9 or 40 landing in the same location??  I am not trying to "dis" these calibers but the 10 in strong loads is well, a real "load."

Pat

[Patriot]

As a hunter, I can say without a doubt this "study" is preposterous. I have hunted deer with various handguns, and have been there when others have taken deer, bear, and wild boar with everything from 9mm to .500 S&W. Obviously a .454, .44 or .500 are not really what we are talking about so I'll exclude them. 9mm and .45acp were the two that performed the worst, more often than not needing multiple shots especially on bear. On deer those two rounds would do the job but the deer would run much farther than deer shot with 10mm, .357 or .40. On bear and boar, I wouldn't ever use anything less than .40 s&w. A navy friend of mine had to put 8 shots of 9mm into a small 275 pound black bear. My Witness 10mm dropped a 350 pound bear in Washington with one shot. He ran 50 yards and fell over.  These are actual, living animals, not some ballistic gel "study."

I use 10mm for a reason. I've seen it used on real flesh and bone. Hunting medium sized game is the closest one can get to how a bullet will perform against a human adversary. Without moving into magnum calibers, 10mm simply does the job cleaner and better.

[The_Shadow]

I put this out there, like I did before...Law Enforcement has a duty, to bring perps to justice.  In the eyes of the law, if a perp is killed, then the justice system doesn't have a chance to work as designed.  They also have force in numbers, as a scene unfolds, (something that we don't have in our own self defense).

Law enforcement, also works in close quarters at times, around other officers, and  bystanders.  In the performance of their duties, if someone get shot by accident it becomes a public relations nightmare and drives up the cost of liability insurances.  The lawyers will be crawling in and out each case to show what was lawful or some wrong doing!  With cameras everywhere as in recent events, they need to be within the guidelines of operations.

While they choose the 9mm for their sidearm, you can bet they will have other firearms for SHTF situations.

Modern 9mm ammo can be loaded to various pressure ratings;
The SAAMI pressure limit for the 9×19mm Parabellum is set at 241.32 MPa (35,001 psi) piezo pressure.
The SAAMI pressure limit for the 9×19 mm Parabellum +P is set at 265.45 MPa (38,500 psi) piezo pressure.
The service pressure Pmax of the 9 mm NATO is rated at 252 MPa (36,500 psi) which is above the SAAMI max.

There is no SAAMI pressure value for the +P+ ammo but it is said to be at 42,000 psi.

[EdMc]

Knowing what the FBI did with 10mm I wonder how long before we'll be seeing 9mm Lite? 

[Wolfie]

I think this is the right choice.

I used the 45 Colt in the Army and loved it.

But the Army is not the police, I started on the job with the 9 and I thought it was weak. The advantage of the 9 is that anyone can fire it, cheap to maintain and most important, the double tap.

I shot yesterday with my nine, and I still practice my double tap and I am within the 10 and 9 zones in the target. When I went to the 10 the first shot is a 10, but I wandered out to the 8 and 7 zones. (15 yards)

Thats when liability occurs. Killing a bad guy is not worth killing a civilian by accident.

[sqlbullet]

I used the 45 Colt in the Army and loved it.

Wow...How old are you.  The Army stopped using the 45 Colt in 1892, though they did resurrect it in the Philippines in about 1900.

[Wolfie]

Colt 45 ACP

[Pinsnscrews]

Well, either the "modern" 9mm is far ahead of the 1980's version, or the FBI is going in circles.

An editorial by a former Speer employee discussed the changes Speer and other manufacturers had to make with regards to 9mm ammo in the late 80's to Early 90's to accommodate the European Spec guns. American 9mm was cast small, and loaded light compared to what the Eurospec guns were chambered for. When the LEO departments started getting in all the Eurospec guns that were tested using Eurospec bullets, FTF/FTE problems rapidly arose. The Engineers at Speer had to react quickly to figure out what the problem was. They basically "Invented" +P on the spot to meet the Eurospec guns needs. They also had to up the bullet size roughly .002 to get the rounds to match the barrel groove diameters compared to American Spec 9mm guns.

So in short, Yes, the 9mm of the Miami Shootout was not the same as the 9mm we have today. It was interesting to note how the author commented that the SAAMI ratings for 9mm have shifted over the years to meet the Eurospec 9mm as a Standard Load. He never discussed actual pressure ratings, but implied that American loadings of the '80s fell well short of current SAAMI ratings.