Decided to to some 10mm versus tear-downs

[Intercooler]

So far just my Match and a 1006. As it appears the Match frame weighs more than the 1006.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8321418#post8321418

[hAkron]

Are the frames on the standard Witness and the Match the same?  Just a different top end and upgraded fire controls?  Or are they different?

[EdMc]

Just a thought, but I'd think grade of steel and type of heat treatment would have more meaning as to strength than just weight.

[Intercooler]

True. Also I think the slide rails to frame are full length versus the 1006.

[sqlbullet]

Are the frames on the standard Witness and the Match the same?  Just a different top end and upgraded fire controls?  Or are they different?

They are a different mfg.  The standard stuff is made by Armscor in the Philippines, while all the elite series guns are made in Italy by Tanfoglio.

Dimensionally they are the same.  I can, and have, torn down my full size and Match and swapped the triggers, sears, etc between the two.  I do have to move the entire fire control group since one is SAO and the other is DA/SA.  Magazines are shared between them.

The slides are very different.  In addition to the Match being .25" longer, the Match does not have browning cuts on the sides at the muzzle.  It is a "unique" block cut to borrow 1911 terminology.  This adds several ounces of weight to the muzzle.

I don't know what hardening process the perform, but they are definitely hard.  I had the idea that I would melt the muzzle and dust cover on my full size before i cerakoted it.  The files I use on my 1911's with relative ease would not even put a slight break on a corner of the standard Witness frame.  I really think the solution to the cracking issue they have may be to soften up the frame and slide a little.  They seem very brittle to me.  Needless to say, no melt was performed.  I don't use power tools to remove metal from my guns. If  file won't do it, either it doesn't need done, or a gunsmith must do it.

I would also add the the frame is just the gun mount.  When considering longevity and strength we are really concerned with the action, which in the case of an auto pistol is the slide/barrel.  It looks like the 1006 has 3 oz of extra steel over the Witness slide.  All else equal, that is going to make a big difference in longevity.  I would bet the Glock slide/barrel are pretty similar, accounting for most of it's 27 oz total weight.

[EdMc]

  "I would bet the Glock slide/barrel are pretty similar, accounting for most of it's 27 oz total weight."

Very true, the slide/barrel assembly of my 20SF weighs 22 oz. The frame, without mag, slightly over 5 oz.

[Yondering]

I don't know what hardening process the perform, but they are definitely hard.

Don't know about the elite series, but the standard Witness frames and slides are case hardened. Crispy on the outside, chewy on the inside...

[Yondering]

I would also add the the frame is just the gun mount.  When considering longevity and strength we are really concerned with the action, which in the case of an auto pistol is the slide/barrel. 

Not entirely true. Frames can and do crack/fail too.

[sqlbullet]

yeah..I agree Yondering.  They do.  But, they amount of stress they take compared to the slide/barrel is orders of magnitude less.

My Witness has a stress crack on the right side between mag release hole and the big grip relief hole.

[Yondering]

agreed. I have also seen horizontal cracks in the mag well right below the frame rails on 1911's that get used hard. Probably wouldn't happen on a Witness though.

[Intercooler]

The Witness design around the mag release was just stupid to not put the cut in like the other models from jump. Not hurting anything though.

[hAkron]

Are the frames on the standard Witness and the Match the same?  Just a different top end and upgraded fire controls?  Or are they different?

They are a different mfg.  The standard stuff is made by Armscor in the Philippines, while all the elite series guns are made in Italy by Tanfoglio.

Are you sure about that?  Doesn't Armscor just import (like EAA)?  I'm confused because The Armscor MAP1s say Tanfoglio on the grips.  I know their 1911's are from the Philippines.  This is the problem with this platform.  Tanfoglio is a decent name in the firearms industry, but rather than establish that name in the US, they get distributed by F.I.E., Springfield, EAA, possibly by Armscor...maybe made by Armscor...who knows really??   

[sqlbullet]

Armscor is a big mfg.  Lots of companies buy castings from them.  Rock Island Armory, for instance.  I seem to remember that Springfield used to get frames from them before they went to Imbel, but am not sure.

I can try to dig up documentation, but yeah, I am certain the elite series are NOT the same as the standard.  I have both, and it is clear the major parts did not come from the same place.

[sqlbullet]

I posted this on my P12 conversion thread, but it is relevant here too.  The new STI slide, commander length, compared to the Para slide, Gov't length.  Both are 40/10mm slides.  But the STI slide is .025" wider and beefier in general.  It has Novak cuts for sights, but still only weighs .7 oz less than the Para slide when both are stripped.  This should help with slide longevity.