Recoil Spring Feel

[Species]

I have ISMI 22 and 24 pound recoil springs on lone wolf guide rods with the gen 4 adapter on my G20. My question is; can you feel a difference when you rack the slide with the heavier springs compared to stock?  I can't tell any difference in the effort required to rack the slide between the stock RSA and my 24 pound ISMI.  Do you fellow G20 owners notice a difference?

[The_Shadow]

I have actually measured the difference of the non captive Wolff Gun Springs 22lb spring and Glocks factory captive with my G-20SF.

I used a digital fish scale (attached to the slide with a small padded to the slide "C" clamp) to pull the slide rearward on the slide measuring the points of unlock and also full retraction...info listed here:
http://10mm-firearms.com/gunsmithing/wolff-gun-springs/

I need to measure the results using the 24lb spring...I try that tonight. 

[Geeman]

I elieve the stock Gen4 spring is better thn the aftermarket as far as how well the slide is stopped at the end of its travel.  I also have the same setup as you, from pistol to aftermarket springs.  I just feel the slide hitting its travel limit harder with the captive spring setup with the adapter.

I just stick with stock setup now.  I grew tired of spending money and gaining nothing in return.

Greg

[The_Shadow]

Just measured the 24 lb setup...it was a work out!
Glock 20SF spring test Wolff Gun Springs 24lb RSA installed
It takes 7lb 6oz to start the slide to move from the locked position
Full retraction at 24lb 1oz at lock open

[Species]

I am convinced the ISMI springs are not a true 22 or 24 pounds.  My guess is they are about 17 pounds.  Both my wife and I cannot distinguish between stock (which is supposed to be 17 pounds) and a 24 pound ISMI.  You would think with a claimed 41% increase over stock you would be able to feel it......  My XD40 is harder to rack the slide than my G20 with the 24 pound spring. My Dad has a High Power in 40 with a 22 pound spring. It is twice as hard to operate as my G20 with ISMI 24 pound recoil spring. Something is not right with the way ISMI rates their springs....at least the two I have.

I think I am going to try Wolff springs. I need to get some +10% magazine springs anyway. Might as well add those to the order.

Has anyone tried the Wolff springs on a Lone Wolf rod assembly?  Lone Wolf claims they will work with a special washer. Curious if anyone has experience with that combo. Wolff still does not offer a Gen 4 RSA.   

[The_Shadow]

Seeing how you can change the ISMI springs, you could also measure their strength with a scale either in the gun like I did with a small clamp tightened to the slide (protect the slide from being marred) or in a setup like a long eye bolt with the spring captured with nut and washer pushed through an open hole in a rigid metal plate in a vice, where you can pull on the eye of the eye bolt to compress the spring and measure the scale readings.

The springs are rated at full compression at the point at which the slide is at lock open for the weight rating...

Holding my digital fish scale steady at 24 lbs of spring pressure is tough, and repeating it several times over took its toll on my neck this evening...

[Species]

I tried something similar to your method just now with an analog luggage scale, an "s" hook I found in the garage, and a small woodworking clamp with rubber feet. Not the most scientific setup. The spring weights at stock, and ISMI 22 and 24 pounds are all within 1 pound of each other. Oddly enough the 24 pound ISMI spring had the lightest reading at about 17 pounds. The stock read about 18. The 22 ISMI read about 18 as well. Interesting........

Granted my luggage scale goes to 55 pounds and the accuracy of the scale is probably not the best, but I think it is pretty close.  I did weigh a couple objects of known weight with the scale and it was right on.  Not sure what to make of all this.

[The_Shadow]

I think I've heard another person say he got less than the advertised spring rates on his ISMI setup as well.  While the method is crude it showed that they are not what they are rated at in my opinion.

[Species]

Just got an RMA with Lone Wolf Dist. to send back my ISMI 24# and 22# springs and guide rod as they don't meet advertised spring weights.  Almost not worth it as I have to pay for shipping back, but every dollar in my account is a dollar I can spend on more accessories and ammo.   For the record, Lone Wolf has been very good to deal with.  No complaints there.  I would not hesitate buying from them again in the future.

I called Wolff Gunsprings this morning and spoke with them about using their guide rod with a gen 4. They informed me that they can't tell me much "on record", but they have had several reports of people having good luck with Gen 4 adapters.  They did caution me that most adapters out there are sized to fit a guide rod that is smaller than the Wolff.  I already knew that, but it was good to get a knowledgeable tech support person.  As Shadow pointed out the Wolff guide rod is .271" and the Lone Wolf appears to be .250" (I will confirm those measurements tonight).

So here is my game plan (let me know if you see any issues):
- Just purchased a Wolff 22 and 24 pound recoil spring.  Hoping a true 22 or 24 pound spring will help with my FTF issues.  Based on Shadow's research it seems like Wolff springs are meeting their  advertised weights
- Purchased a Wolff guide rod - didn't want to risk springs bunching up on the smaller diameter Lone Wolf rod. 
- I am keeping my Lone Wolf Gen 4 Adapter ring and will ream out and mirror polish the hole to the same dimensions on a Gen 3 Slide (thanks to The_Shadow for the measurements of the Gen 3 Slide)
- Purchased +10% magazine springs from Wolff
- Sent all 3 mags back to Glock for "upgrade" as recommended by Glock Tech Support

As I mentioned before I will do my modifications in steps so hopefully I can isolate any bad behavior (nose up FTF) with this Gen 4 G20.  I am feeling optimistic that something on this list will work.  I love the feel of this gun and want to keep it.  It is a little depressing spending so much money trying to get a gun to work properly out of the box.  I hope Glock gets their hands around this Gen 4 problem soon.  I love the 10mm round and hate to see any 10mm firearm get a black eye.  We only need good publicity to help boosts popularity of this versatile round.

Let me know if you have any other bright ideas or comments on this process.

[Species]

Found this drill bit on amazon that should get me close to the finish diameter of the new hole in the adapter. 

http://www.amazon.com/YG-1-Gold-P-Jobber-Straight-Diameter/dp/B009NMZEHU/ref=sr_1_2?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1405361368&sr=1-2

The bit is slightly undersized so when I polish up the inside of the hole with increasing grits of fine automotive sandpaper moving up to a fine polishing compound it should remove the remaining metal and give me the perfect diameter hole.  I will keep my fingers crossed.  I am going to do all this with a drill press and clamp the adapter to a block of wood somehow.  Still thinking through that one as the adapter ring is pretty small and might prove to be a challenge to hold in place.  I need to figure out a way to hold it still so I make sure the enlarged hole is centered in the ring.  Wish me luck at my amateur gunsmithing endeavor.

It would be alot easier if I could just find an adapter of the correct dimensions, but nobody can give me the measurements over the phone.  At lease this way I know what I am getting.

[The_Shadow]

Do you have any kind of collet, that might hod the adapter ring in a vice as you drill it.  the main thing will be to keep it steady and not turning as the drill works.  Easy feeding of the bit while maintaining high bit cutting speed.  Be careful! 

Dremel and stone bits might get you there also...

[Species]

Love the Dremel idea. Just stopped by Home Depot and picked up a 7/32" round chainsaw sharpening stone.  With that and a good polish I think I will be set. Thanks for the input. I also plan on wrapping automotive sandpaper around the stone to start the polish (by hand and not in the Dremel-I have made that mistake before).  I have up to 2000 grit on hand from a few trigger jobs I have done. Gets a nice mirror finish once you hit it with polishing compound.

[Quick 2]

On my Witness the factory recoil spring was 14lbs, I ordered an 18lbs from Wolf Spring and can tell a big difference in the 2. Wolf Springs messed up my order and was sending me 2 springs because when I ordered my spring it said there was an error and my order did not go through. I look at MidwayUSA and they had the very same spring and it was a litter cheaper so I ordered from them. I called Wolf explained the situation and they told me they would cancel my order. To my surprise in about 3 days I receive a package from Wolf Spring containing the 18lbs spring and a free extra power firing pin spring. I called Wolf Springs again and spoke with a lady this time. She told me that the screw up was totally there fault and for me to keep the springs I have and she would refund the money for the cost of the spring and the shipping. This is rare you don't see customer service like this these days.

[Species]

A quick update on my recoil spring situation:

I received the Wolff 22 and 24 pound recoil springs and guide rod.  I decided not to modify the Lone Wolf Gen 4 adapter ring.  Seemed like alot of work and I ended up finding several rings that seemed like they would work.  Instead I purchased an adapter ring from Zev Technologies / Glockworx.  I called Glockworx and the tech support person was extremely helpful and even put me on hold why he went and measured the ring with calipers.  Due to his helpfulness I ordered it from them.  Here are my thoughts on the products:

Wolff Guide Rod: Excellent quality and finish.  Machining appears to be flawless.  The tiny bit of the rod that pokes out of the slide is coated black and looks really nice.  Diameter is .270"

Wolff Springs:  Excellent.  More on the weights later

Zev Technologies / Glockworx Gen 4 Adapter Ring:  Excellent fit and finish.  Machining is top notch.  DLC coating is dark black and seems like it will be durable.  Inside diameter of the adapter ring opening is about .278" which works perfect with the guide rod.  Assembled in the slide this ring looks really nice.  Looks much better than the stock RSA.  Here is the one I purchased.  http://www.glockworx.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=156834

I assembled the guide rod and springs yesterday and took some readings of spring weight.  The 22 pound Wolff spring hit 22 pounds exactly!  The 24 pound spring was about 24 to 24.5 pounds!  Perfect.  Cycling the action by hand is very smooth with this setup and I don't feel any hangup or binding whatsoever.  Definitely much harder to cycle the slide, which is what I want.  Very pleased with this purchase!  The only negative I can see is that it is a little tricky to get the uncaptured springs assembled in the slide.  With the gen 4 adapter there is no countersunk area where the front of the spring can index in the slide and keep it from slipping around.  I think Gen 3 frames have this from what I have heard.  When you are trying to compress the spring, line up the guide rod, and insert it into the slide with an extra power spring it takes a little skill.  The spring wants to jump around when you start to compress it and makes it hard to get the guid rod aligned.  with a little practice this should become a little easier.   

One more thing I noticed is that when I remove the slide the guid rod slips off the "shelf" on the barrel lug.  It appears to stay in place when the gun is assembled and I cycle it by hand, but the second I pull the slide off I can here a "click" as the guide rod slips off the shelf.  This happens occasionally with the stock RSA, but not as much.  I am not sure if this is an issue I need to worry about or not.  It may be because the Wolff guide rod is machined much smoother and there is less friction between the barrel lug and the base of the rod.  With the stock RSA the base of the RSA is pretty rough and is not polished at all.  Any body else have this happen?  Should I be concerned?

Once I get my magazines back from Glock I will do a range test and report.

[The_Shadow]

Did you notice the Wolff spring has a smaller diameter at one end?  That end needs to go to the back end of the recoil rod as it helps center the spring on the rod.  Being your adapter has no recess for the larger end of the spring, I can see where it would present an issue for reassembly.  In that case it would be nice to see both ends of the spring made smaller to keep it centered as well.

I did see an article where the opening of Gen4 slide had gotten bent due to it being milled larger in diameter, not sure what caused it to bend...too much recoil or excessive recoil spring pressure or both.  If I recall I saw one was cracked as well.
I looked for the pictures but have not come across them.

Just be careful and keep a close look out for damages that might occur.