Gen 4 FTF (nose up)

[The_Shadow]

He is my outlook on the Gen4 issues...I was in the market for the G-20 Gen4, I over research a lot of stuff, but a great deal came to me on a G-20SF 3Gen and I moved in. 

Well that said, I was communicating with various forum members on 6 different forums.  I also read about what others were experiencing as they tested, during which, trying to understand for myself what was happening and why.  Many I communicated with, tried suggestions of diagnosing the problems, or changing out RSA, and doing things in the attempt of finding a cure, so they could shoot the true 10mm ammo from their guns.

Chuck2 went so far as to send me some of the very ammo he was having issues with, some it was pull-down documented for Q/A put back together, then as per his request, it was shot through my G-20SF without one malfunction.  I was even trying some radical stuff, one of my ex-coworkers was teaching a student for CCW that day, he was concerned, why I was shooting like I was.  What raised the red flag on the range was, the last few shots, I was shooting gangsta style and also with the gun upside down.
I shot with two hands firm grip, one handed, limp handed, varying the amount of ammo in the two different magazines, used the factory RSA and the Wolff non-captive with 22lb spring, all while trying to keep shots going over the chronograph while standing in puddles of rainwater.  Try as I might I could not induce a failure, stoppage of any kind.
Here was the report

Tested the Parabellum Research 165 grain FMJ V-Supreme ammo today, 50 rounds...

My back is still a little sore, it went out last Friday, weather yesterday was horrendous, over 4"+ rain yesterday.  Some of the ranges were closed; however I was able to get into one although it was sopping wet.  Wind was stiff and moving clouds made some shots not register on the CHRONY.

Here are the results of the range trip, Glock 20 SF.
NO failures of any kind.  I did fire 15, 5, 3, 2 from each of two different magazines.

Factory barrel/spring
1290, 1344, 1317, 1340, 1317, 1340, 1280, 1334, 1328, 1191,
1323, 1360, 1380, 1322, 1327, 1324, 1343, 1319, 1331

Factory Barrel Wolff Gun Springs 22lb non captive recoil rod and springs
1295, 1361, 1330, 1335, 1347, 1246, 1342, 1325, 1321, 1333,
1347, 1335, 1328, 1348, 1336, 1333, 1310, 1310

Those were the rounds that registered; I was sort of rushing through this, before anyone else showed up. 

Case expansion was 04330"- 0.4340", typical of Glock Factory Barrels.

No problems with this ammo as tested.   

Here is the link to Chucky2's post; http://10mm-firearms.com/10mm-semi-auto-handguns/g20-gen4-ftf-issues/

On be have of Chuck2 and the 10mm community of people, I even wrote a letter to Smyrna Georgia Glock via a company e-mail. 

I am a moderator on the 10mmFirearms.com website and frequent various other related sites and it seem there are many experiencing issues with the newer Generation 4 pistols.  My interest is with the Glock 20 gen4, trying to help people all over  understand/diagnose the issues they are  experiencing.

What I think needs to happen is for Glock to setup and observe these issues with the Glock 20 4th generations, using high speed cameras, playback in slow motion, and look for frame flexing, parts bouncing/moving under recoil or other induced stresses with real 10mm ammo, not the stuff at 40S&W ballistics.

I have to wonder if the "new frame design" that uses the various grip inserts, has caused a flexing of the frame with the higher impulsed ammo...   Is it flexing causing drag on the slide?  Looking for wear on the rails that the slide rides on, may not show up right away if the flex is bowing the frame up or down between the rails.

Then there is the current RSA which is also "new to the 4th Gen", is it part of the problems that so many people are having.
Is it enough for the control of the slide speeds?  Is it too much and causing a flex of the frame?

Why is it that the last round is staying in the magazine and not being picked up by the returning slide?  Is the slide stop not being held in proper location or is it bouncing at the time the round is trying to pop up, to cause the slide to lock open with rounds in the magazine. (BTW, this was noticed by S&W in their slow motion playback of video, during the development of the 10XX series.) 

There has to be a solution, to solve the issues being seen by so many Glock customers!  Glocks are great pistols but the latest gen4's have many disgusted.

The Gen 3's have run mostly without issues, my G-20SF has run flawlessly in stock configuration and even with the Wolff 22 non captive recoil rod & 22lb spring, it has also runs well with the LWD 6" 9x25Dillon barrel as tested also.  My G-29 also runs flawlessly.

Please find a solution to fix these great pistols...
Thanks,
Wade

NO reply or acknowledgement was ever made back to me from Glock.

We can only hope that Glock will take this issue up and find where these Gen4's are having problems and make them right, Based on previously built models they flat out worked great and that is what customers expect from the New Gen4's! 

[redbaron007]

He is my outlook on the Gen4 issues...I was in the market for the G-20 Gen4, I over research a lot of stuff, but a great deal came to me on a G-20SF 3Gen and I moved in. 

Well that said, I was communicating with various forum members on 6 different forums.  I also read about what others were experiencing as they tested, during which, trying to understand for myself what was happening and why.  Many I communicated with, tried suggestions of diagnosing the problems, or changing out RSA, and doing things in the attempt of finding a cure, so they could shoot the true 10mm ammo from their guns.

Chuck2 went so far as to send me some of the very ammo he was having issues with, some it was pull-down documented for Q/A put back together, then as per his request, it was shot through my G-20SF without one malfunction.  I was even trying some radical stuff, one of my ex-coworkers was teaching a student for CCW that day, he was concerned, why I was shooting like I was.  What raised the red flag on the range was, the last few shots, I was shooting gangsta style and also with the gun upside down.
I shot with two hands firm grip, one handed, limp handed, varying the amount of ammo in the two different magazines, used the factory RSA and the Wolff non-captive with 22lb spring, all while trying to keep shots going over the chronograph while standing in puddles of rainwater.  Try as I might I could not induce a failure, stoppage of any kind.
Here was the report

Tested the Parabellum Research 165 grain FMJ V-Supreme ammo today, 50 rounds...

My back is still a little sore, it went out last Friday, weather yesterday was horrendous, over 4"+ rain yesterday.  Some of the ranges were closed; however I was able to get into one although it was sopping wet.  Wind was stiff and moving clouds made some shots not register on the CHRONY.

Here are the results of the range trip, Glock 20 SF.
NO failures of any kind.  I did fire 15, 5, 3, 2 from each of two different magazines.

Factory barrel/spring
1290, 1344, 1317, 1340, 1317, 1340, 1280, 1334, 1328, 1191,
1323, 1360, 1380, 1322, 1327, 1324, 1343, 1319, 1331

Factory Barrel Wolff Gun Springs 22lb non captive recoil rod and springs
1295, 1361, 1330, 1335, 1347, 1246, 1342, 1325, 1321, 1333,
1347, 1335, 1328, 1348, 1336, 1333, 1310, 1310

Those were the rounds that registered; I was sort of rushing through this, before anyone else showed up. 

Case expansion was 04330"- 0.4340", typical of Glock Factory Barrels.

No problems with this ammo as tested.   

Here is the link to Chucky2's post; http://10mm-firearms.com/10mm-semi-auto-handguns/g20-gen4-ftf-issues/

On be have of Chuck2 and the 10mm community of people, I even wrote a letter to Smyrna Georgia Glock via a company e-mail. 

I am a moderator on the 10mmFirearms.com website and frequent various other related sites and it seem there are many experiencing issues with the newer Generation 4 pistols.  My interest is with the Glock 20 gen4, trying to help people all over  understand/diagnose the issues they are  experiencing.

What I think needs to happen is for Glock to setup and observe these issues with the Glock 20 4th generations, using high speed cameras, playback in slow motion, and look for frame flexing, parts bouncing/moving under recoil or other induced stresses with real 10mm ammo, not the stuff at 40S&W ballistics.

I have to wonder if the "new frame design" that uses the various grip inserts, has caused a flexing of the frame with the higher impulsed ammo...   Is it flexing causing drag on the slide?  Looking for wear on the rails that the slide rides on, may not show up right away if the flex is bowing the frame up or down between the rails.

Then there is the current RSA which is also "new to the 4th Gen", is it part of the problems that so many people are having.
Is it enough for the control of the slide speeds?  Is it too much and causing a flex of the frame?

Why is it that the last round is staying in the magazine and not being picked up by the returning slide?  Is the slide stop not being held in proper location or is it bouncing at the time the round is trying to pop up, to cause the slide to lock open with rounds in the magazine. (BTW, this was noticed by S&W in their slow motion playback of video, during the development of the 10XX series.) 

There has to be a solution, to solve the issues being seen by so many Glock customers!  Glocks are great pistols but the latest gen4's have many disgusted.

The Gen 3's have run mostly without issues, my G-20SF has run flawlessly in stock configuration and even with the Wolff 22 non captive recoil rod & 22lb spring, it has also runs well with the LWD 6" 9x25Dillon barrel as tested also.  My G-29 also runs flawlessly.

Please find a solution to fix these great pistols...
Thanks,
Wade

NO reply or acknowledgement was ever made back to me from Glock.

We can only hope that Glock will take this issue up and find where these Gen4's are having problems and make them right, Based on previously built models they flat out worked great and that is what customers expect from the New Gen4's! 

Thanks Shadow for reporting your research to Glock. I bet they have reviewed your information; especially if it has been presented as you have done above. I am not being facetious or sarcastic....I'm serious. Your attention to detail is fabulous; as well as several others on here.

I researched the G3 v G4 before I purchased mine. I liked the G4; so I ordered one...took almost a year to get it.

I'm not saying, nor have I said these folks have no issues with the firearms.....what I have said is to leap from 'my problem' to Glock Leadership is failing or ignoring the QC problem; that's arrogant. Glock, just like S&W/Ruger/Remington, are not a mom/pop shop....they do have QC controls....do I know them-Nope. Does anyone outside of Glock know-I doubt it very seriously.

I know you have your theory, it may be true; but if it was true, then all G4s should be doing the same thing. But my G4 G20 is operating fine; I know of two more in my area that work fine with the various ammo. I am not aware of any G4s with issues in my area; are there some...couldn't tell ya. I guess what I am saying is, there may be some issues with these folks guns; but it doesn't equate to the G4 G20 line is not up to par and Glock leadership is ignoring the issue.

I hope they find something with Species gun and fix it.

[chucky2]

Well, there really are two things here:

1 - 'my problem':  Just solely from a 'my problem' perspective, they have not handled the issue correctly.  They were informed via the RMA form, and in subsequent conversations, that the problem manifests itself shooting upper mid to high SAAMI spec 10mm ammo.  They handled this crucial customer feedback not by having said 10mm ammo on hand, or ordering/making it to test the customer reported issue with (in software dev this would be having relevant to the issue test data rather than just using whatever one happens to have at hand), they instead ignored that and used what we can infer is pretty mild 10mm ammo.  I would not say just based on my own singular 'my problem' that this is indicative of a Leadership issue at Glock.  It very well could be (as in, maybe the mainline folks really do understand but Glock Leadership has issued an edict stating 'no "special"  ((read: what you already have been provided)) ammo will be procured don't even ask'), however one couldn't presume that.

2 - many 'my problem':  This is why I say there seems to be a Glock Leadership failure here.  Enough of the same problem has been reported that at this point in time, a properly setup RMA system should have flagged this as an issue.  By now, when I send a 'How's it going' e-mail, rather than having to ignore it, Glock should enthusiastically be sending back an e-mail saying 'Yes we're aware of customer reports of our Glock Perfection Gen4 G20 using mid to upper SAAMI spec 10mm ammo, we have procured ammo to test with, and are amid testing the issue.  We will contact you (bonus points for providing an ETA here) when we have completed our testing.'  The opposite of that is happening.  Worse, the mainline people should obviously be aware of the issue, and have ammo in the power range producing the issue to use when a pistol with relevant customer complaint comes in, so they can do proper validation/fallout testing.  As far as we know (and, we'd know, because if it was happening they'd state it to get themselves off the hook) that opposite of that is happening.

Leadership at all companies is paid the $$$,$$$ and given the ego ride to be Leadership.  They're responsible for the proper systems to be put in place, the culture, the oversight, etc.  Let me ask this:  Precisely what, other than completely sidestepping the Gen4 issue and giving Gen3's rather than actually fixing the Gen4's, is Glock doing that would make you believe Glock Leadership hasn't failed here?

Chuck

[redbaron007]

Again...based upon your circumstances you are making a blanket assumption about the QC and leadership at Glock. You may be one out of 100 or 1000; you don't know. Are you having a problem....yes! To blanket say, because they didn't handle it the way you thought it should have been handled, they are ignoring it, is a stretch.

And once again, 'many my problems' is an unknown number. Again, we don't have production numbers to determine if it is widespread or guns manufactured in Jan-Feb 2013 or any other time period. No question, you are having a problems and you have heard others having problems. I've read probably some of the same info; although mine and others I know have no issues to date.

So to assert Glock leadership is intentionally ignoring the problems is ludicrous.

Leadership at all companies is paid the $$$,$$$ and given the ego ride to be Leadership.  They're responsible for the proper systems to be put in place, the culture, the oversight, etc.  Let me ask this:  Precisely what, other than completely sidestepping the Gen4 issue and giving Gen3's rather than actually fixing the Gen4's, is Glock doing that would make you believe Glock Leadership hasn't failed here?

What does this statement have to do with your firearm? If you are implying, once again, that because they haven't satisfied you, the whole upper leadership is corrupt so they can get the big bucks, inflate their ego??......this makes me chuckle! Your statement above is a very cynical view of corporations. Regarding the G4 G20, Glock has done nothing to make me think they have failed.

I truly hope they get yours fixed.

[chucky2]

Again...based upon your circumstances you are making a blanket assumption about the QC and leadership at Glock. You may be one out of 100 or 1000; you don't know. Are you having a problem....yes! To blanket say, because they didn't handle it the way you thought it should have been handled, they are ignoring it, is a stretch.

No, I'm making an observation based on the feedback of the members who have reported the same issue to Glock.  If they were handling it properly, they'd have procured the proper ammo to test with.  If they were handling it properly, they'd fix Gen4 issues rather than cover it up with a Gen3.  What other way would you look at this?  Lets try an analogy as you seem to be caught up in me holding a Billion dollar Corp responsible for actually properly investigating their product:  If we sent multiple examples back to Ford RMA (and these wouldn't be stealerships which can be good or suck, this would be actual Ford Corp run RMA) of their Ford Flex failing to run on 89 and 93 octane gas, and they said 'Well we tested and it worked fine', and we then pried out of them that they tested with only 87 octane gas, and we did this multiple times to the same RMA department, would you expect Ford RMA to have an IT system to track issues and collate those issues for similarity?  Who would be responsible for making sure such a system existed and worked?  Would you expect the Leadership of the RMA department to be aware of the same issues coming into their Front Door, ie oversight?  When an escalation was sent detailing the problem with the RMA departments lack of being able to obtain 89 and 93 octane gas to test with, and that escalation was forwarded on, how many months would you expect it would take for Leadership to manage properly responding to that escalation?  3 months?  10 months?  What is an acceptable number to you before it becomes a Leadership failure to respond?

And once again, 'many my problems' is an unknown number. Again, we don't have production numbers to determine if it is widespread or guns manufactured in Jan-Feb 2013 or any other time period. No question, you are having a problems and you have heard others having problems. I've read probably some of the same info; although mine and others I know have no issues to date.

That really doesn't matter.  What matters is they've been made aware of the problem and have failed to care for it.  We know this because if they had actually cared for it, Species OP would never have gone down like that.  They have failed.  Why they have failed, only Glock knows (if they even know, or care to know).  I'm not sure why you are wanting to not realize this.

So to assert Glock leadership is intentionally ignoring the problems is ludicrous.

No, actually I'm just saying Glock Leadership has failed here.  Certainly they have failed to instill a culture of problem solving/problem escalation/problem resolution in their RMA department.  We know this from Species OP.  Certainly they have failed on escalated issues, as if they hadn't, they would easily be able to e-mail me back (after I have to chase after them, another culture failure on their part) and at least say they are looking at the problem.  Circling back, it would seem they have failed to have a proper system setup for their own RMA to be advised of repeated RMA issues, and even worse, failed to provide their RMA with either the requisite ammo needed to test EDIT or the means to request needed ammo to test.

Leadership at all companies is paid the $$$,$$$ and given the ego ride to be Leadership.  They're responsible for the proper systems to be put in place, the culture, the oversight, etc.  Let me ask this:  Precisely what, other than completely sidestepping the Gen4 issue and giving Gen3's rather than actually fixing the Gen4's, is Glock doing that would make you believe Glock Leadership hasn't failed here?

What does this statement have to do with your firearm? If you are implying, once again, that because they haven't satisfied you, the whole upper leadership is corrupt so they can get the big bucks, inflate their ego??......this makes me chuckle! Your statement above is a very cynical view of corporations. Regarding the G4 G20, Glock has done nothing to make me think they have failed.

I truly hope they get yours fixed.
[/quote]

What do you mean what does it have to do with my/our firearms?  We're not talking about properly functioning firearms that aren't sent back to Glock, we're talking about firearms that have already inconvenienced Glock customers and that are at the mercy of the RMA/QA processes Glock Leadership has put in place.  I don't know how you got that I think they're taking the money and running, my point is they are paid well and given their position of Leadership (of which in the 10 years at this Fortune 10? 20?  whatever I'm at I've not run into one yet that doesn't have an ego) that it's their job to make sure 1.) that we don't have the problem we seem to be having and 2.) if/when problems do occur they are resolved in a proper and timely manner.  Rather than duck my question again, and not using the 'We'll give you a Gen3 because we can't fix the Gen4' option, please tell me what Glock has done here to fix the misbehaving Gen4.

You realize they have the links to the threads here right?  That they could proactively create an account here, PM the users with their Glock contact info, arrange for us to send our Gen4's back (and cross ship us a Gen3 or Gen4 for use while they look at our misbehaving Gen4), and let us know they're looking at the issue?  Has anything like that happened?

It's very odd having this conversation with you...

Chuck

[Species]

OK - let me shed some light on the inner workings of Glock....or at least what I just experienced.  I just spent 15 minutes on the phone with a Glock Triage Armorer. Apparently they are the manager level armorers.  This gentleman who will remain nameless to protect the innocent, gave me a wealth of information.   I kept asking questions and he kept giving me awnsers.  I ended up asking questions that were not even related to my pistol just because he was such a nice guy and knew so much. 

Just for the record my pistol arrived at Glock's facility yesterday morning at 10:30.  Due to the fact my pistol was new they gave me a return shipping label.  I got a call today at 1:30 Georgia time.  That is a 27 hour turn around.  I think that is pretty impressive, but again this is just my personal experience.  Here is what I can share and I will just state the "facts".  I am still developing my personal opinion of Glock and their leadership, so I will refrain from commenting at the moment.

#1 - Glock is very much aware of the issues with the Gen 4 G20's.  He would not elaborate, but he did state that he has 15 Gen 4's in their facility that are having issues.  This is something that Glock is very much aware of from what I can gather.

#2 - Glock is trying to get a hold of high power ammo to test these pistols.  They are having a very hard time getting ammo (like the rest of us).  They do bulk testing with CCI Blazer ammo, but when pistols are sent in for functionality testing they do in fact test it with high power loads (when they can get them).  This gentlemen stated that they have Underwood ammo, buffalo bore, etc in their facility right now but they can't get the quantity necessary to do full scale testing on all the pistols that have been sent back.  Just like they rest of us they are only able to get a "couple boxes at a time".  Maybe we need to get underwood to send Glock a pallet of ammo so we can get this Gen 4 issue resolved.  This gentlemen said they have not been able to get Corbon to even respond to their request for ammo.  It is crazy that these ammo manufacturers would pass up an opportunity to supply Glock with testing ammo by the truckload.   That being said, I think it is funny that Glock doesn't recommend we shoot those loads, but then they are trying to get this in their facility so they can shoot them 

#3 - Glock actually does proof testing of all pistols with a "black hills" ammo that is above SAAMI specs.  He would not tell me how much above SAAMI specs this proof ammo is, but he said it was "really hot stuff" that is custom made for Glock to their specifications.  They test with this above spec ammo to assure there are no catastrophic failures of newly assembled pistols.

#5 - This particular Glock Armorer does not own any Gen 4 guns.  He said, "I don't own any Gen 4's.....I will leave it at that"  He gave me the "wink wink" on that one.

#6 - Glock has been unable to replicate the failure to feeds in their facility.   This is because they can't get enough of the ammo we all shoot..... They do have high speed cameras, but since they have not been able to replicate the issues they have not found a solution.  They hope that once they can get enough ammo from Underwood or others that they will be able to diagnose and fix the problem.  he said that he believe that their customers are having issues, but they can't fix a problem that they can't recreate in a controlled environment.

#7 - Glock Armorers do care about customer satisfaction, but you have to get past the main line customer service people before you will reach an armorer that will give a care (personal opinion and experience on this one).  This guy spent 15 minutes on the phone with me.  He didn't have to do that.  He also mentioned that he knows this gun is "life and death" and wants to make sure that I am taken care of.

#8 - Glock recommends the #4 followers in G20 gen 4 mags.  The new #4 followers are the latest and greatest.  Not sure how to get them as you can't buy them.  Probably have to call Glock and ask for them.

In a nut shell I have been impressed with how Glock has handled my issue.  Granted my gun is brand new and I started bothering them on day 1, but they have been quick to respond.  They are going to send me a Gen 3 to my FFL in 5 to 7 business days.  This armorer also said he will personally test my Gen 3 gun with what little Underwood ammo they have left to make sure it works.  He will also make sure the #4 followers are installed in the mags. 

In summary, Glock is aware of the problem, but due to the current ammo shortages they have been unable to procure "high power" ammo to try to diagnose the problems and fix them.  I suspect that over the next year or so Glock will have the problem resolved, but in the mean time I would steer clear of the Gen 4 platform.

All of the above is my own personal opinion and experiences, take it for what it is worth (if you ask my wife it is worth very little    )

[redbaron007]

OK - let me shed some light on the inner workings of Glock....or at least what I just experienced.  I just spent 15 minutes on the phone with a Glock Triage Armorer. Apparently they are the manager level armorers.  This gentleman who will remain nameless to protect the innocent, gave me a wealth of information.   I kept asking questions and he kept giving me awnsers.  I ended up asking questions that were not even related to my pistol just because he was such a nice guy and knew so much. 

Just for the record my pistol arrived at Glock's facility yesterday morning at 10:30.  Due to the fact my pistol was new they gave me a return shipping label.  I got a call today at 1:30 Georgia time.  That is a 27 hour turn around.  I think that is pretty impressive, but again this is just my personal experience.  Here is what I can share and I will just state the "facts".  I am still developing my personal opinion of Glock and their leadership, so I will refrain from commenting at the moment.

#1 - Glock is very much aware of the issues with the Gen 4 G20's.  He would not elaborate, but he did state that he has 15 Gen 4's in their facility that are having issues.  This is something that Glock is very much aware of from what I can gather.

#2 - Glock is trying to get a hold of high power ammo to test these pistols.  They are having a very hard time getting ammo (like the rest of us).  They do bulk testing with CCI Blazer ammo, but when pistols are sent in for functionality testing they do in fact test it with high power loads (when they can get them).  This gentlemen stated that they have Underwood ammo, buffalo bore, etc in their facility right now but they can't get the quantity necessary to do full scale testing on all the pistols that have been sent back.  Just like they rest of us they are only able to get a "couple boxes at a time".  Maybe we need to get underwood to send Glock a pallet of ammo so we can get this Gen 4 issue resolved.  This gentlemen said they have not been able to get Corbon to even respond to their request for ammo.  It is crazy that these ammo manufacturers would pass up an opportunity to supply Glock with testing ammo by the truckload.   That being said, I think it is funny that Glock doesn't recommend we shoot those loads, but then they are trying to get this in their facility so they can shoot them 

#3 - Glock actually does proof testing of all pistols with a "black hills" ammo that is above SAAMI specs.  He would not tell me how much above SAAMI specs this proof ammo is, but he said it was "really hot stuff" that is custom made for Glock to their specifications.  They test with this above spec ammo to assure there are no catastrophic failures of newly assembled pistols.

#5 - This particular Glock Armorer does not own any Gen 4 guns.  He said, "I don't own any Gen 4's.....I will leave it at that"  He gave me the "wink wink" on that one.

#6 - Glock has been unable to replicate the failure to feeds in their facility.   This is because they can't get enough of the ammo we all shoot..... They do have high speed cameras, but since they have not been able to replicate the issues they have not found a solution.  They hope that once they can get enough ammo from Underwood or others that they will be able to diagnose and fix the problem.  he said that he believe that their customers are having issues, but they can't fix a problem that they can't recreate in a controlled environment.

#7 - Glock Armorers do care about customer satisfaction, but you have to get past the main line customer service people before you will reach an armorer that will give a care (personal opinion and experience on this one).  This guy spent 15 minutes on the phone with me.  He didn't have to do that.  He also mentioned that he knows this gun is "life and death" and wants to make sure that I am taken care of.

#8 - Glock recommends the #4 followers in G20 gen 4 mags.  The new #4 followers are the latest and greatest.  Not sure how to get them as you can't buy them.  Probably have to call Glock and ask for them.

In a nut shell I have been impressed with how Glock has handled my issue.  Granted my gun is brand new and I started bothering them on day 1, but they have been quick to respond.  They are going to send me a Gen 3 to my FFL in 5 to 7 business days.  This armorer also said he will personally test my Gen 3 gun with what little Underwood ammo they have left to make sure it works.  He will also make sure the #4 followers are installed in the mags. 

In summary, Glock is aware of the problem, but due to the current ammo shortages they have been unable to procure "high power" ammo to try to diagnose the problems and fix them.  I suspect that over the next year or so Glock will have the problem resolved, but in the mean time I would steer clear of the Gen 4 platform.

All of the above is my own personal opinion and experiences, take it for what it is worth (if you ask my wife it is worth very little    )

Great Info...Thx! 

[The_Shadow]

Species, Thanks for your very detailed post!  I light of your conversation, it does seem to be getting the attention it deserves.  That is goal of these conversations here sharing of info, and while the conversations tend to warm up it has not ruffled anyones feathers so to speak!  Getting the G-20 4th gen fixed is what is on everyones mind, because people have placed their faith in the Glock product, but have been disappointed in the unreliability experienced.  Everyone wants them to run like a sewing machine and not miss a stitch. 

Also we have lost many good makes of 10mm guns over the years, we don't like losing a any platform for this great cartridge!

Heck, maybe I should load some ammo to the Underwood specs and send it to Glock!  The recipes are documented and recorded and tested...

[chucky2]

Very good to here that Species!  If you happen to have to call him again, or, he calls you, I'll be happy to donate my remaining 153 rds of PBR 165gr Velocity Supreme to their cause - although I really doubt 153 rds would help them much.  At this point I'd be happy to lend them my Gen4 G20 for a month or three, but it sounds like they have some already.

I very much hope your soon to be Gen3 functions flawlessly!

[fanninland]

Wow, what an informative thread. Great opinions and observations here guys. Two differing points of view on how Glock has handled (or not) the situation each with valid points.

As for me, I hope my Gen4 reliability continues to improve. I've shot all my UW and need to order more when it's back in stock to know for sure. Which kinda sucks as I have an RMR that needs a home and want to make sure this guns a keeper before having the slide milled.

Species, thanks for posting. I hope your Gen3 runs flawless - you are certainly due. And btw if that KKM won't work on a Gen3 can I call dibs?!! (insert image of vulture circling here lol).

[Species]

Species, thanks for posting. I hope your Gen3 runs flawless - you are certainly due. And btw if that KKM won't work on a Gen3 can I call dibs?!! (insert image of vulture circling here lol).

  man, the vultures swoop in pretty quick on this forum!  Hopefully the only surplus/non compatible parts I have is my Glockworx gen 4 adapter ring for the Wolff guide rod I just purchased. It only has 50 rounds on it, basically brand new. Once the dust settles I think I could let it go to a good home. 

I hope your gun just gets better with age. You being a lefty makes it hard to leave the Gen 4.   On the bright side it could give a some "tap/rack/bang" practice. You could be a master malfunction clearer by the time you are done!

An RMR on a G20 would be sweet!

[Species]

Very good to here that Species!  If you happen to have to call him again, or, he calls you, I'll be happy to donate my remaining 153 rds of PBR 165gr Velocity Supreme to their cause - although I really doubt 153 rds would help them much.  At this point I'd be happy to lend them my Gen4 G20 for a month or three, but it sounds like they have some already.

I very much hope your soon to be Gen3 functions flawlessly!

The armorer I spoke to said they need thousands and thousands of rounds to just to diagnose an issue. When you think about it they would need to run a couple hundred rounds through all 15 guns they currently have just to get a feel for what is going on.   And that is just the start. Then they need a lot more to test fixes and various versions of fixes. They also probably want to run a control test and a variable test so you would need multiple types of ammo. Start adding that up and they need pallets of ammo. There just isn't that much ammo for anyone out there theses days. Makes me feel better that even Glock can't get all the ammo they need. Guys like underwood just can't produce ammo fast enough to keep up with their current customers let alone Glock asking for a bulk order.  From what I gathered glock got thousands of rounds from underwood, but it was not enough to recreate the FTF issues enough that they can do anything about it.  To Glock thousands of rounds is the same as a "couple boxes" for us normal folks.

But I would be happy to take that ammo off your hands 

[The_Shadow]

Its not that Underwood can't produce the ammo fast enough, it is the lack of supplies, Brass, Bullets, Powder & Primers.
Supplies are still sporadically coming out to the various companies.

BlackHills is under the ATK umbrella with Federal, Speer and CCI, although the company is separating the Aerospace part.

[chucky2]

Very good to here that Species!  If you happen to have to call him again, or, he calls you, I'll be happy to donate my remaining 153 rds of PBR 165gr Velocity Supreme to their cause - although I really doubt 153 rds would help them much.  At this point I'd be happy to lend them my Gen4 G20 for a month or three, but it sounds like they have some already.

I very much hope your soon to be Gen3 functions flawlessly!

The armorer I spoke to said they need thousands and thousands of rounds to just to diagnose an issue. When you think about it they would need to run a couple hundred rounds through all 15 guns they currently have just to get a feel for what is going on.   And that is just the start. Then they need a lot more to test fixes and various versions of fixes. They also probably want to run a control test and a variable test so you would need multiple types of ammo. Start adding that up and they need pallets of ammo. There just isn't that much ammo for anyone out there theses days. Makes me feel better that even Glock can't get all the ammo they need. Guys like underwood just can't produce ammo fast enough to keep up with their current customers let alone Glock asking for a bulk order.  From what I gathered glock got thousands of rounds from underwood, but it was not enough to recreate the FTF issues enough that they can do anything about it.  To Glock thousands of rounds is the same as a "couple boxes" for us normal folks.

But I would be happy to take that ammo off your hands 

Wow, thousands and thousands, that I don't have!    I was thinking if they needed example ammo/loading which producing the FTF, they're welcome to my 153 rds.  Otherwise man, I haven't had the opportunity to shoot in months!    :'(  I'm shooting it first if Glock doesn't want it! 

[redbaron007]

Very good to here that Species!  If you happen to have to call him again, or, he calls you, I'll be happy to donate my remaining 153 rds of PBR 165gr Velocity Supreme to their cause - although I really doubt 153 rds would help them much.  At this point I'd be happy to lend them my Gen4 G20 for a month or three, but it sounds like they have some already.

I very much hope your soon to be Gen3 functions flawlessly!

The armorer I spoke to said they need thousands and thousands of rounds to just to diagnose an issue. When you think about it they would need to run a couple hundred rounds through all 15 guns they currently have just to get a feel for what is going on.   And that is just the start. Then they need a lot more to test fixes and various versions of fixes. They also probably want to run a control test and a variable test so you would need multiple types of ammo. Start adding that up and they need pallets of ammo. There just isn't that much ammo for anyone out there theses days. Makes me feel better that even Glock can't get all the ammo they need. Guys like underwood just can't produce ammo fast enough to keep up with their current customers let alone Glock asking for a bulk order.  From what I gathered glock got thousands of rounds from underwood, but it was not enough to recreate the FTF issues enough that they can do anything about it.  To Glock thousands of rounds is the same as a "couple boxes" for us normal folks.

But I would be happy to take that ammo off your hands 

Just thinking out loud here........if they are needing that much ammo to replicate the issues; it makes me wonder whatever the issue is, is it sporadic enough to only know there is an issue; but what is the problem.....i.e. the frame is not capable of handling the higher end ammo, RSA issue, mag/follower issue, slide, feeding ramp or a combination of all the above. 

It would be nice to see the results of their testing.

Thanks Species for logging your conversations. It sheds more light onto the issue.