Gen 4 FTF (nose up)

[Species]

I just printed my return shipping label that Glock gave me.  I am sending the gun and mags back.  I called and spoke with an armorer about my issues.  I asked if they would just swap me out for a Gen 3.  He didn't really respond to that question, but he did say "send your gun in with a letter describing your concerns and what you expect us to do and we will do our best to accommodate you."  I hope that was "code" for yes, but only time will tell.  At least he didn't flat out say "no".  Looks like I will be without a 10mm for a month or so. 

I wrote a detailed letter describing my issues and my desire to have a Gen 3 platform, provided my FFL information and copy of their license, and am sending back my gun, its case, and all factory accessories that came with it.  My thought is that they won't have any excuse to not swap me out for a Gen 3.  They will have the complete gun and case as it shipped out of their warehouse.  I hope I can convince them just to ship out a Gen 3 and I will stop bothering them 

[chucky2]

You should tape a note to it when you send it back:  'Unable to handle upper end SAAMI spec 10mm ammo, the opposite of what you all test for function with.'   Then again, you want them to help you out, so maybe not a good idea...

[Species]

You should tape a note to it when you send it back:  'Unable to handle upper end SAAMI spec 10mm ammo, the opposite of what you all test for function with.'   Then again, you want them to help you out, so maybe not a good idea...

Excellent idea  . I will let you try it first and see how it works. I don't want to steal your thunder   

[The_Shadow]

I wish you all the luck getting satisfaction you deserve!   There have been many who have had these issues with the Gen4 G-20's and it doesn't look like they have found a cure.  I still think it has to do with the frames flexing under the influence of the high impulse rounds like Underwood and others. 

The only way they will see that happening is to film it with high speed camera and slow motion playback.  They need to look for bounce of the slide lock, flexing along the frame to slide fit to see if the magazine is being moved away from the returning slide, slide velocities, they need to look down from the top into the ejection port at the feeding ammo.

[Species]

I wish you all the luck getting satisfaction you deserve!   There have been many who have had these issues with the Gen4 G-20's and it doesn't look like they have found a cure.  I still think it has to do with the frames flexing under the influence of the high impulse rounds like Underwood and others. 

The only way they will see that happening is to film it with high speed camera and slow motion playback.  They need to look for bounce of the slide lock, flexing along the frame to slide fit to see if the magazine is being moved away from the returning slide, slide velocities, they need to look down from the top into the ejection port at the feeding ammo.

I agree.   To me it almost seems like the frame flexes and the magazine is forced upwards in the mag well causing the round to be too high and jam nose up. But I lack $100,000 worth of camera equipment to test that theory. I don't think it is slide velocity as my 24 pound Wolff spring seems to slow the slide down well and it still has issues with it installed.

[fanninland]

Species, sorry to hear about your problems with the Gen4 G20. I have had the same gun for about 9 months and have had very similar problems, at least in the beginning. My Gen4 also handles Armscor and similar loads without problems, but initially with DT and Underwood I would get the FTF nose ups, except it seemed mine were not consisently the last 3 or 4 in the mag - it may have been with 2, 5 8 or even 12 rounds left in the mag. I kept shooting and first the problems with the DT 200gr WFNGC seemed to clear up (I say "seemed to" because at what that ammo costs, I've only shot 30-40 rounds of it), then problems with the UW 200gr TMJ's lessened so that with the last box I had maybe one or two FTF's. The UW 180 gr TMJ's seemed to always cause the most problems, but the last few mags ran without a hitch (I usually only load 10 when practicing). I think I remember reading here that there were a few lots of UW 180 TMJ that seemed even hotter than usual, so maybe it stands to reason if my ammo was from those lots that is why I was having more problems than with the 200 TMJ's.

I recently purchased some 21 and 24 lb springs from another member here, and have only put a couple mags through using each spring. It really didn't seem to help or hurt - maybe a little less frame battering with the 24 lb - but no jams. I haven't tested  the actual spring pull of either, per the earlier posts in this thread. Otherwise my G20 is completely stock.

I have probably 600 rds thru mine, and issues seemed to improve greatly at the 400-450 rd mark. I hope things stay this way and do not regress - being a lefty I wanted a Gen4 for the ambi mag release feature but I have read about several others in your situation trading their Gen4's for Gen3's.

Anyhow, given my circumstances, I was curious as to the total round count you have through your Gen4?

[Species]

Anyhow, given my circumstances, I was curious as to the total round count you have through your Gen4?

I have not kept an exact round count, but I am probably in the 700-800 round range.  I typically give my guns a 500 round break in period before I get too worked up. My Kahr CM9 needed a solid 300 rounds before I could trust it. Now it is flawless with all ammo I feed it. This G20 hasn't gotten the memo that after 500 rounds it needs to stop acting up 

[Intercooler]

I think we need to add one of these to the list

[redbaron007]

Species, sorry to hear about your problems with the Gen4 G20. I have had the same gun for about 9 months and have had very similar problems, at least in the beginning. My Gen4 also handles Armscor and similar loads without problems, but initially with DT and Underwood I would get the FTF nose ups, except it seemed mine were not consisently the last 3 or 4 in the mag - it may have been with 2, 5 8 or even 12 rounds left in the mag. I kept shooting and first the problems with the DT 200gr WFNGC seemed to clear up (I say "seemed to" because at what that ammo costs, I've only shot 30-40 rounds of it), then problems with the UW 200gr TMJ's lessened so that with the last box I had maybe one or two FTF's. The UW 180 gr TMJ's seemed to always cause the most problems, but the last few mags ran without a hitch (I usually only load 10 when practicing). I think I remember reading here that there were a few lots of UW 180 TMJ that seemed even hotter than usual, so maybe it stands to reason if my ammo was from those lots that is why I was having more problems than with the 200 TMJ's.

I recently purchased some 21 and 24 lb springs from another member here, and have only put a couple mags through using each spring. It really didn't seem to help or hurt - maybe a little less frame battering with the 24 lb - but no jams. I haven't tested  the actual spring pull of either, per the earlier posts in this thread. Otherwise my G20 is completely stock.

I have probably 600 rds thru mine, and issues seemed to improve greatly at the 400-450 rd mark. I hope things stay this way and do not regress - being a lefty I wanted a Gen4 for the ambi mag release feature but I have read about several others in your situation trading their Gen4's for Gen3's.

Anyhow, given my circumstances, I was curious as to the total round count you have through your Gen4?

Did you buy the dual spring assembly?

[chucky2]

You should tape a note to it when you send it back:  'Unable to handle upper end SAAMI spec 10mm ammo, the opposite of what you all test for function with.'   Then again, you want them to help you out, so maybe not a good idea...

Excellent idea  . I will let you try it first and see how it works. I don't want to steal your thunder   

Haha I'm getting to that point with mine.  I'm past the year warranty from Glock, but I reported the issue prior to my 1 year, so I wonder if I'd be grandfathered in.  Right now I'm sending a guy monthly e-mails asking on status of him escalating my issue.  I wonder if Glock will ever pay attention to this (this = midupper to upper end 10mm having FTF in Gen4 G20) or just ignore it...

I wish you luck on getting a Gen3!

[Species]

Haha I'm getting to that point with mine.  I'm past the year warranty from Glock, but I reported the issue prior to my 1 year, so I wonder if I'd be grandfathered in.  Right now I'm sending a guy monthly e-mails asking on status of him escalating my issue.  I wonder if Glock will ever pay attention to this (this = midupper to upper end 10mm having FTF in Gen4 G20) or just ignore it...

I wish you luck on getting a Gen3!

I think Glock is ignoring the problem right now OR they are not aware of the problem.  The G20 is not a huge volume product for Glock, so they may not see a large number of them returned for warranty work.  I also suspect that most people who shoot them only shoot FBI Lite type loads and will never have an issue.  Armscor or Remington UMC both function fine in my G20 and are very popular 10mm loads and my guess is that most people stick to something similar in their G20's.  Most cannot afford/choose not to sent alot of Buffalo Bore or Underwood down range.   For me, I bought the gun for the firepower and knew it would cost a small fortune to shoot.  The tech support guys at Glock tell me every time I call that they do not recommend "that type of ammo".  My response has always been, "where does it say that in your owners manual, website, or any other documentation?"  If they don't want you to shoot full power ammo they should be upfront about it and have a maximum "power factor" of some sort that tells you what you can and cannot shoot.  I have had numerous discussions with the folks at Glock about that.  They will not give me a level of ammo that is the maximum, but they are quick to tell me that buffalo bore, underwood, doubletap, etc are not recommended.  When I ask what they do recommend they say any ammo within SAAMI specs is OK to shoot.  I then respond that all those ammo manufacturers that you just said where not recommended are within spec......     It is like talking to a child.  But to their credit they have been good to work with, they are just not as informed on the 10mm platform as the folks here are. 

I just got an email saying my package was delivered to Glock this morning.  Hoping to get a call from an armorer this week.  Perhaps more of us need to report problems to Glock and send the pistols back for work.  If they saw a large percentage of the guns coming back they may do something about it.  Can you say Gen 5 G20?.....no thank you.....If i were Glock I would halt production on Gen 4 and just stick with Gen 3.  It is a tried platform, why mess with a good thing.

[chucky2]

I think that was my biggest frustration (other than a malfunctioning pistol) so far:  Not getting through to Glock that this is a real problem.  I just had this rosy view that since firearms are a literal matter of life and death, and reputations are built on a quality and reliability, that firearms manufacturers would have a zeal in ensuring issues relating to their products were handled in a serious manner.

From what I've read on the net, there are some manufacturers that have this pride and commitment to their products, and others that don't.  I work as a Program Manager/Project Manager in a $1B+ software shop...if someone came to me with an equivalent problem, we don't sweep that under the rug.  The issue is talked about, it's accepted as an issue (whether it's a defect for how the code was defined in the original requirements or a new enhancement that needs to happen to make things work properly), and we work the resolution.  What we don't do is just drop the issue, especially after being told about it - well, that does happen from time to time, but it's not pretty when it eventually comes to light.  This is probably the most frustrating thing.  Glock has been told now by multiple people reporting issues with their Gen4 G20's shooting higher than mild ammo that there are problems.  At what point does their QA system, that their Leadership should have ensured is setup and running correctly, actually start logging this repeat issue and get it on a technical SME (mainline Tech Support should not be that system, it's clear they do not understand the issue) radar to look into?

My fear is their Leadership has failed to ensure a system is setup and running properly, and their 'QA system' is the mainline Tech Support people escalating the issue...in which case, those of us with Gen4 G20's experiencing this are doomed, as the mainline folks think testing with (as far as we can infer) weak 10mm ammo is going to repeat functional issues customers specifically state happens with medium to upper end ammo.  Worse, escalations produce silence, where as they should produce apologies and action (gets back to culture at company).

Oh well, off my soapbox in your thread.  I truly hope you get your issues resolved (either way) with your Gen4 G20!

Chuck

[Species]

Well said Chuck.....well said. I think you summed up all of our frustrations very well.

[redbaron007]

No offense intended....but you do not know what Glock is having reported to them. You/We only know what is blurted about on the interweb. But I forgot, everything on the web is true. 

//rant-on//

If one is having an issue with the weapon, sure, they should report it. Remember, Glock may be getting reports, but what are those reports. They may have a few reporting this issue; or that issue, but they are relative different issues with no correlation to each other...at least for now. The other question is, how many reports are coming in versus the number of guns sold? However, to accuse leadership of QC issues is beyond the scope of comprehension. To go from my gun has a problem to leadership has failed the QC aspect is not only a blue sky jump but arrogance at its best; for some to leap from their problem, to since it is not being fixed they way they think it should, leadership has failed?.....makes no sense.

I know it's hard for people to think other people may not be having the same problem; but if they are not, it may not be as widespread as others want it to be.

Bottom line.....if one is having problems, report it to Glock, work with them......this goes with any manufacture. I mean, look at the Remington R-51.....there are lots of rumors production has stopped and a completely re-designed model is forthcoming. But no announcement has been made, yet.

//rant-off//

I would be willing to bet Glock is cataloging the issues. Will they tell you; probably not.

Full disclosure, my new G20 G4 has had no issues; including shooting UW Ammo; that goes with either barrel.

[The_Shadow]

He is my outlook on the Gen4 issues...I was in the market for the G-20 Gen4, I over research a lot of stuff, but a great deal came to me on a G-20SF 3Gen and I moved in. 

Well that said, I was communicating with various forum members on 6 different forums.  I also read about what others were experiencing as they tested, during which, trying to understand for myself what was happening and why.  Many I communicated with, tried suggestions of diagnosing the problems, or changing out RSA, and doing things in the attempt of finding a cure, so they could shoot the true 10mm ammo from their guns.

Chuck2 went so far as to send me some of the very ammo he was having issues with, some it was pull-down documented for Q/A put back together, then as per his request, it was shot through my G-20SF without one malfunction.  I was even trying some radical stuff, one of my ex-coworkers was teaching a student for CCW that day, he was concerned, why I was shooting like I was.  What raised the red flag on the range was, the last few shots, I was shooting gangsta style and also with the gun upside down.
I shot with two hands firm grip, one handed, limp handed, varying the amount of ammo in the two different magazines, used the factory RSA and the Wolff non-captive with 22lb spring, all while trying to keep shots going over the chronograph while standing in puddles of rainwater.  Try as I might I could not induce a failure, stoppage of any kind.
Here was the report

Tested the Parabellum Research 165 grain FMJ V-Supreme ammo today, 50 rounds...

My back is still a little sore, it went out last Friday, weather yesterday was horrendous, over 4"+ rain yesterday.  Some of the ranges were closed; however I was able to get into one although it was sopping wet.  Wind was stiff and moving clouds made some shots not register on the CHRONY.

Here are the results of the range trip, Glock 20 SF.
NO failures of any kind.  I did fire 15, 5, 3, 2 from each of two different magazines.

Factory barrel/spring
1290, 1344, 1317, 1340, 1317, 1340, 1280, 1334, 1328, 1191,
1323, 1360, 1380, 1322, 1327, 1324, 1343, 1319, 1331

Factory Barrel Wolff Gun Springs 22lb non captive recoil rod and springs
1295, 1361, 1330, 1335, 1347, 1246, 1342, 1325, 1321, 1333,
1347, 1335, 1328, 1348, 1336, 1333, 1310, 1310

Those were the rounds that registered; I was sort of rushing through this, before anyone else showed up. 

Case expansion was 04330"- 0.4340", typical of Glock Factory Barrels.

No problems with this ammo as tested.   

Here is the link to Chucky2's post; http://10mm-firearms.com/10mm-semi-auto-handguns/g20-gen4-ftf-issues/

On be have of Chuck2 and the 10mm community of people, I even wrote a letter to Smyrna Georgia Glock via a company e-mail. 

I am a moderator on the 10mmFirearms.com website and frequent various other related sites and it seem there are many experiencing issues with the newer Generation 4 pistols.  My interest is with the Glock 20 gen4, trying to help people all over  understand/diagnose the issues they are  experiencing.

What I think needs to happen is for Glock to setup and observe these issues with the Glock 20 4th generations, using high speed cameras, playback in slow motion, and look for frame flexing, parts bouncing/moving under recoil or other induced stresses with real 10mm ammo, not the stuff at 40S&W ballistics.

I have to wonder if the "new frame design" that uses the various grip inserts, has caused a flexing of the frame with the higher impulsed ammo...   Is it flexing causing drag on the slide?  Looking for wear on the rails that the slide rides on, may not show up right away if the flex is bowing the frame up or down between the rails.

Then there is the current RSA which is also "new to the 4th Gen", is it part of the problems that so many people are having.
Is it enough for the control of the slide speeds?  Is it too much and causing a flex of the frame?

Why is it that the last round is staying in the magazine and not being picked up by the returning slide?  Is the slide stop not being held in proper location or is it bouncing at the time the round is trying to pop up, to cause the slide to lock open with rounds in the magazine. (BTW, this was noticed by S&W in their slow motion playback of video, during the development of the 10XX series.) 

There has to be a solution, to solve the issues being seen by so many Glock customers!  Glocks are great pistols but the latest gen4's have many disgusted.

The Gen 3's have run mostly without issues, my G-20SF has run flawlessly in stock configuration and even with the Wolff 22 non captive recoil rod & 22lb spring, it has also runs well with the LWD 6" 9x25Dillon barrel as tested also.  My G-29 also runs flawlessly.

Please find a solution to fix these great pistols...
Thanks,
Wade

NO reply or acknowledgement was ever made back to me from Glock.

We can only hope that Glock will take this issue up and find where these Gen4's are having problems and make them right, Based on previously built models they flat out worked great and that is what customers expect from the New Gen4's!