Gen 4 FTF (nose up)

[Species]

I will start out by saying, Thank you to everybody on this forum.  I have been reading for a long time, but first time posting.  I appreciate your knowledge and insight!

I have a Gen 4 G20 that keeps giving me FTF (nose up) when there are 3 or 4 rounds left in the magazine.  The first 11 or 12 shots in the mags feed just fine.  This malfunction happens with all 3 mags I have.   I should mention that it only happens when I am shooting max or near max loads.  I have had it happen with FMJ, Gold Dots, and Doubletap's WFNGC hard cast.  When I shoot Armscor 180gr FMJ it functions 100% even with the 24 pound spring.  I checked the feed lips with calipers are they are within Glock spec.  I have disassembled the mags to check to make sure everything is good....no luck.

I get the malfunctions with both the stock and KKM barrel.  I have tried the stock recoil spring, 22 pound spring, and I even bought a 24 pound spring to try to fix it.  Anytime I feed it full power it jams with 3 or 4 rounds left in the mag.  It malfunctions in its100% stock configuration or 100% modified.

It sounds like others have been having this issue.  Has anyone found a resolution?  I didn't buy a 10mm to only shoot watered down loads, I bought it so I could get maximum knockdown power when I am out in the woods.  If I am stuck to Armscor level ammo, I think I made a mistake in purchasing a Gen 4.  I have a call into Glock customer service to see what they can do, waiting to hear back from them.



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[The_Shadow]

Species, Welcome to the forum!  Yes others have experienced the same condition with their 4th generations.  The "Nose Up" issue seems to be magazine spring related.  Some have stretched out their magazine springs as they were found too short and yet others have gone with extra power magazine springs from Wolff Gun Springs.  Some followers can have drag as they try to slide inside the magazine housing, check to see if there is any flash (excess plastic from molding process), I use some Armor All to lightly condition the insides of my magazines...wipe on and off leaving a slight film to help things from hanging up, on the outsides it helps them drop freely also.
Even still some experienced the last round remaining in the mag with the slide locked back.

They have a post where the springs were measured before and after on the forum here somewhere.

Good luck and best regards! 

[Species]

Shadow - Thank you!  I will have to play with the springs and try the armor all trick. 

A little off topic, but magazine related, all of my magazines rattle when they are loaded and inserted into the pistol.  It sounds like a round is sliding forward and back inside the magazine.  When the magazine is taken out of the gun it does not rattle and the spring pressure seems to hold the rounds in place.  If I take the magazine out if the pistol and push the top round down into the magazine with my finger about 1/8" and shake the magazine it rattles.  Could this be related to the FTF issue?

[The_Shadow]

That is very possible...the sides of the follower could be dragging on the insides of magazine itself, that would be a problem to maintain proper spring upward pressure for the entire follower travel.  Look inside the magazine itself for any snags, like the plastic flash I mentioned.  It should be smooth all the way to the top.  I have even found one of my G-20 Mags with the spring in backwards.

[Species]

I took my magazines apart and everything looks to be in order. The springs on all the mags are about 5-3/4" long. I searched the forum and couldn't find the thread on mag spring length. Anyone have input on wether that length is correct?

[The_Shadow]

Chucky2 found some about an inch shorter (new magazines) and was told they needed to be at 6", yours are very close...see post Reply #29 in this link.
http://10mm-firearms.com/10mm-semi-auto-handguns/g20-gen4-ftf-issues/15/

[Species]

I just got off the phone with Glock.  The gentleman I got on the phone proceeded to tell me that you cannot shoot underwood, buffalo bore, or double tap ammo through your Glock because they all exceed 37,500 "FPS".  I said, "do you mean PSI???".  He said, "no 37,500 feet per second.....that is way too fast for a Glock".  I said, "hell yes it is, that is close to the speed of light.  I am pretty sure you are talking about pressure".  His reply, "maybe you are right, but you still can't shoot that ammo through your glock because it does not meet SAAMI specs.  We discussed that BS for several minutes......

After a long and frustrating conversation about buffalo bore and doubletap all having loads within spec, he proceeded to tell me that you can't shoot any full power ammo out of a glock.  I told him that they should advertise that information or at least put it in the owners manual (which I read before I purchased).  I told him I didn't buy a 10mm to shoot .40 S&W level rounds out of it.  I already have a .40, I don't need a much bigger, much heavier, and much more expensive gun to shoot  that only delivers equal performance as its little brother.  I even directed him to Glock's website where they advertise the 10mm as this: "The GLOCK 20, in 10mm AUTO, provides nothing short of massive firepower especially suited for hunting"

He then asked me if I had tried swapping the recoil spring out.  I said, "Do you mean with an aftermarket assembly? I am not allowed to do that, it will void the warranty......but since you asked first, yes I did and it didn't help". I thought that was interesting to have a glock tech support person suggest an aftermarket part that technically voids their warranty.

At the end of the conversation he agreed to take the magazines back and swap them out, but I have to pay shipping to get them back.  Apparently Glock does not send shipping labels for magazine issues.  Not a huge deal, I have already spent a fortune on this stupid gun, another $5.00 at the post office isn't going to make my wife any more furious than she already is  .   I hope the new mags will solve the problem.  I can't afford to shoot much more ammo out of this thing just trying to solve a factory defect.  I have already spent close to $300 on ammo and range fees just trying to trouble shoot this problem.  Granted I have gotten better and handling the recoil, but it has not been an enjoyable stress relieving session like it usually is.

Overall I am very disappointed in Glock's customer service.  I expected more.  I think I may sell this gun unless someone can talk me out of it.  With my night sights, KKM barrel (which I love by the way), recoil springs of various weights, and a few other misc accessories to try to get the gun working properly, I am into this thing the exact same price as a Kimber 10mm.  I should have just gone with the Kimber.  At least their customer service is helpful.

So there is my rant...........I will keep you all posted on the outcome.

[Species]

I should also mention that they will not take the gun back as they are certain it is magazine related.  I have to try their new magazines first.  Then if there is still an issue, this gentleman said that they would need to have a certified Glock Armorer look at the gun before it comes back to them.

Again, I will keep everyone up to speed on the what happens.  Thanks for all your help!

[The_Shadow]

Just so you know...This is what I asked Underwood today...
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2014 1:10 PM
To: sales@underwoodammo.com
Subject: Contact Us Submitted
Comments or Questions: One question, does your 10mm ammo fit the SAAMI pressure 37,500 psi and the MAP?
Thanks
Wade

Cody Craig <sales@underwoodammo.com>
Yes, it is at the top of SAAMI's specifications, but it is still in SAAMI's specifications.

Mrs. Cody Craig
618-965-2109
hannah@underwoodammo.com

[Species]

Thanks for the info from Underwood.  I figured that was the case, but it is good to have an "official" response.  I called DoubleTap and got a similar response over the phone, didn't think to document it, but perhaps I will follow up with an email.

[Species]

This just came to mind, as I was speaking with the Glock tech support rep on the phone yesterday he asked me what number I had on my magazine followers. I have a 3 marked on the top of all my followers. He then put me on hold and came back and said they want to replace all my magazines.  I asked him if the number 3 was a bad number, he would not give me a straight answer. It will be interesting to see what number comes back on the replacement mag followers.

I am curious what numbers are on the followers that others have had FTF issues with. Has anyone ever looked at the numbers on their followers?  What number do you have on magazines that work flawlessly?

[The_Shadow]

I check the followers on my G-20SF and they have a number 2 on them...

Let us know what number follower they send back!   The 4gen has a different slide stop and may actually require the #3's

[Species]

Thanks shadow. I will keep everyone up to speed.  I hope Glock has a fast turn around time.

[The_Shadow]

You're welcome, I too just want to see the Gen 4 Glocks run as smooth as butter and without any issues. 
I wrote the Wolff Gun Springs about springs for the Gen4's and they haven't started to make specific setups for them yet.  Someday they will probably get tooled up to supply the Gen4's as more are made and sold but they may also be looking at reliability issues.

Glock needs to study the situations, to gain the upper hand, too many people having problems and many are being discouraged with buying the Gen4's...

Good luck!

[txgunshowreview]

#3 followers for my g20 gen 4, although I only shoot BB 155gr. Barnes and 220gr hard cast, Wilson Combat 180gr. XTP's, and Pierce (Ted Nugent) 180gr HP's.  No issues, although FWIW, I do have a gunsmith fit Barso barrel and had a reliability package performed on the G20 by the same gunsmith.

I have one old gen-3 mag and it has a #2 follower.

good luck!

- jim