Crimping Issue

[REDLINE]

I've finally started handloading.  The press is a Hornady 007 single stage.  The 10mm Auto is the only cartridge I'm handloading.  I have the newer Horandy Taper Crimp 3 Die Set item# 546534 (NOT 546533).  I set up the seater/taper-crimp die for seating and crimping.  I set the crimp level to match 3 different loads of factory 10mm ammo by 3 different manufacturers (Winchester, Hornady, & CCI Blazer Aluminum) that all measured out to the same case diameter (within about .001") at the very top edge of the case.  If it matters, the bullets I was loading are 155gr XTP and the cases are brand new Starline.  I did NOT size any cases since Starline says you don't have to with their brand new brass.  That said, I in no way lubed them either.  The die set is brand new.  I disassembled all the dies and thoroughly cleaned off all oil that was on them from the factory.

What I presume to be an issue is what seems to me like overkill force that it took me to get the seating/taper-crimp die to release the completed round.  I had to slam the press handle with enough force for some rounds that the rim of the case head bent by a couple thousands of an inch.  I only had expanded the case mouths just enough to barely get a bullet to start.  I'm thinking this can't be normal?

Everything else went fine, near as I could tell, with my beginner experience level.

[cwlongshot]

Good morning,

While its possible the die is faulty, let me back up to the start...

First, you started out good! CLEANING NEW DIES!!! (Most forget that part assuming "its new" whats the point?) It is important as is cleaning them based on usage.
I have a question: Did this seater die produce any ammo correctly?

Second, Lets look at the brass... Measure its length. Just cause its new, dosen't mean its correct... While its generally true straight walled pistol cases tend to grow VERY slowly. So much so, they seldom need to be trimmed. They could be long form the start... Simple check will rule this out. IF OK, lets look at the die.
Concerning pre sized cases, I personally never used new brass as is, I resized it. MANY think as you and let them go as is. Its a choice, I prefer to trust what I do as opposed to any company. Especially when its such a simple thing to resize and know its right.

Third, (You may know this but humor me)the seater die seats the bullet AND crimps the bullet in place. But a taper crimp is not nearly as "aggressive" as a roll crimp. You may simply have the die adjusted down too far. I like to load "dummy" bullets. One for each new projectile and keep them in the die box for die setup. This means using the seater die to seat ONLY. THEN after correct OAL, go back and adj the crimp for proper amount.
I'm thinking the die may simply be adjusted too tightly. As a rule, I seat bullets THEN in an additional set, go back and crimp the bullets. Generally speaking, semi auto rounds can be set up to do both at once pretty easily...

When you adj it, remember, this case head spaces off the case mouth, if you set the taper crimp to sink the mouth into the bullet side, its gone and HS is determined by the rim and extractor... it may work, but is not correct. Set the die so a portion of the case mouth is still detectable with a trained finger nail...

Good luck,
CW

[The_Shadow]

Good info CWLongshot, I purchased a set of die spacer rings many years ago (they are still avalible from Redding) in my efforts I set my taper crimp die for proper taper crimps, and use the die spacer ring to lift that die (that way I don't have to continuously re adjust it), with it lifted I use it to seat all my bullets to the proper COAL.  When all are seated I remove the Spacer ring to return the die for proper taper crimping with only the bullet seater stem being moved back out so as not to change the COAL while the taper crimp is applied.

I used to have the seater/taper crimp set differently when I was doing the 40 S&W's using one or two spacers when I was doing for various steps.  But I picked up a second Seater/Taper Crimp die and use one for 10mm the other for 40S&W now.

[REDLINE]

Good morning,

While its possible the die is faulty, let me back up to the start...

First, you started out good! CLEANING NEW DIES!!! (Most forget that part assuming "its new" whats the point?) It is important as is cleaning them based on usage.
I have a question: Did this seater die produce any ammo correctly?

Yes, 10 rounds done to perfection according to my calipers, scales, and vision.   10 rounds that ended up being a PITA as it were. :'(

Second, Lets look at the brass... Measure its length. Just cause its new, dosen't mean its correct... While its generally true straight walled pistol cases tend to grow VERY slowly. So much so, they seldom need to be trimmed. They could be long form the start... Simple check will rule this out. IF OK, lets look at the die.
Concerning pre sized cases, I personally never used new brass as is, I resized it. MANY think as you and let them go as is. Its a choice, I prefer to trust what I do as opposed to any company. Especially when its such a simple thing to resize and know its right.

I did measure all of the new cases that I loaded and then a few (I wanted to see if they varied at all from the git go, not to mention what length they were at in the first place).  All but one measured out to .987".  One was .9875".

Point taken on resizing.

Third, (You may know this but humor me)the seater die seats the bullet AND crimps the bullet in place. But a taper crimp is not nearly as "aggressive" as a roll crimp. You may simply have the die adjusted down too far. I like to load "dummy" bullets. One for each new projectile and keep them in the die box for die setup. This means using the seater die to seat ONLY. THEN after correct OAL, go back and adj the crimp for proper amount.
I'm thinking the die may simply be adjusted too tightly. As a rule, I seat bullets THEN in an additional set, go back and crimp the bullets. Generally speaking, semi auto rounds can be set up to do both at once pretty easily...

I did load a dummy round for crimp (in this case .423") and COL (in this case 1.260").  Remember, this is the newer Hornady "Taper Crimp" die set (not that you aren't aware, just prefacing what I'm typing next).  I purposefully set up the die from the git go to only have the crimp at the top edge of the case mouth reach the .423" case mouth goal I set based on SAAMI spec and what I measured on factory manufacturers ammo.  I only continued to adjust the crimp till I reached that mark.  Not a hair more.  After the first 3 rounds, having such major issues (in my inexperienced mind) I reexamined the crimp with another dummy cartridge setup.  I thought maybe once things settled in or something I could back it off a hair and get the same .423" crimp and get rid of the king kong grip the die had on my finished round(s).  After I reset it up and made sure no foreign matter was in the die creating a binding (there wasn't near as I could tell using a flashlight and Q-tip) effect it did seem to marginally improve.  Only marginally!, but was still literally very difficult.

And yes, I set up seating first and crimping second like the instructions that came with the die set said to do.  In case it helps, and for anyone that doesn't know;  This die set does not achieve crimping by adjusting the whole die body.  The die body gets secured 100% and from there you adjust a crimp adjust screw which the seat adjust screw is threaded into up above.  Both the crimp adjust screw and seat adjust screw have separate lock rings.  The lock rings lock into place with the help of a rubber washer for the seat adjust, and a rubber o-ring for the crimp adjust.  I'll tell ya one thing;  Kudos to lock and load quick change die bushings to easily swap between the expander die and the seat/crimp die!

When you adj it, remember, this case head spaces off the case mouth, if you set the taper crimp to sink the mouth into the bullet side, its gone and HS is determined by the rim and extractor... it may work, but is not correct. Set the die so a portion of the case mouth is still detectable with a trained finger nail...

Check.

Good luck,
CW

Thanks.  Right now I just hope I get to the point of good luck.  My hopes are still 100% though, as I do realize I'm just a beginner.  Some trial and error is usually to be expected. :'(  Though I'm not sure yet if this "error" is to be expected at all.

[cwlongshot]

OK good, your thorough, this is good. You will be in good shape soon as you are gonna find the problems. 

I would take the die apart and see whats inside thats not supposed to be. SOMETHING changed as you got some good bullets out of it before the problems began... I am thinking something is in there jambing up the works... OR something broke. (Unlikely but possible just the same)

If you just use this die what are you using as a re-sizer and what was wrong with the seater die that came with the kit?

CW

[REDLINE]

OK good, your thorough, this is good. You will be in good shape soon as you are gonna find the problems. 

I would take the die apart and see whats inside thats not supposed to be. SOMETHING changed as you got some good bullets out of it before the problems began... I am thinking something is in there jambing up the works... OR something broke. (Unlikely but possible just the same)

If you just use this die what are you using as a re-sizer and what was wrong with the seater die that came with the kit?

CW

The good rounds I got out of it went through the same crimp issue.  I get the crimp I want no problem.  Still, right from the git go I've had the issue and even after setting up the die again from scratch along with thoroughly inspecting it, the issue is still there.  I was even careful to set the die up to just barely achieve that crimp level (simply SAAMI spec, no crazy stuff).  I'll have to take some pics of the die and post them for you to see, it just won't be till later on tonight.  I don't think anything is broke.  Out of spec maybe, but not broke.

I'm not resizing.  It is new Starline brass, that by actual measurement, seem identical.

The die seats and taper crimps at the same time.  Nothing is wrong with the seating aspect near as I can tell.  I set it up to seat at 1.260" and it so far repeatedly seats to 1.260" for the 10 rounds I've completed, working with the issue throughout.  That die just doesn't want to give me the rounds back after a bullet seat and taper crimp.

[cwlongshot]

(thinking out loud)  Yea you said that... "NOT SIZING"... For some reason I assumed you had a complete die set anyhow... 

Maybe it is time to buy a set of dies and try the seater that comes with the set...

CW

[REDLINE]

I must have misinterpeted what you said.  I do have a brand new complete 3 die set.  That 3 die set is the Hornady Series II Titanium Nitride Taper Crimp die SET, item #546534 (not the older but still available Hornady item # 546533 die set for 10mm/40 S&W).

I simply am not using the decapping/sizing die that came with the 3 die SET.

You can see this die set here - http://www.hornady.com/store/3-Die-Taper-Crimp-Sets/

The seat/crimp die they show in their photo is not the one I have in my die SET.  It's just a generic photo.

[cwlongshot]

I must have misinterpeted what you said.  I do have a brand new complete 3 die set.  That 3 die set is the Hornady Series II Titanium Nitride Taper Crimp die SET, item #546534 (not the older but still available Hornady item # 546533 die set for 10mm/40 S&W).

I simply am not using the decapping/sizing die that came with the 3 die SET.

You can see this die set here - http://www.hornady.com/store/3-Die-Taper-Crimp-Sets/

The seat/crimp die they show in their photo is not the one I have in my die SET.  It's just a generic photo.

SIMPLE then!!

As I mentioned, set up and try the other die!!  If its works fine, look at issues with the other die...

CW

[REDLINE]

Well, tell me if I'm wrong, which I'm comletely open to, but since my seat/crimp die has a floating sleeve inside that drops down from the main die body when you hold the die straight up and down, I can see that the brass case is not hung up on the brass case body, but rather right at the point it is taper crimped.  And since I'm more/less only removing flare put on the mouth of the brass case, that should be all it's doing and simply won't let go of the outside of the case mouth.  I don't think sizing would help.  And my brass cases have no burr on the outside of the brass case mouth where it's being taper crimped.  Either way, the brass cases I'm using are within SAAMI spec and not oversized or something goofy out of "spec."  I'll get some pics later and show you what I said above.  Also, verifying what I said above, it's clear that the sides of my non lubed brass cases don't have any marks on them suggesting they were contacted by anything.  They have the same high polished look the did before I ran them through the die.  I will say that the taper crimp operation does leave a shiny ring around the case mouth (a very very fine ring that you have to look closely to even see, where you can see the brass was worked from the taper crimp/seating die).

[cwlongshot]

Well, tell me if I'm wrong, which I'm comletely open to, but since my seat/crimp die has a floating sleeve inside that drops down from the main die body when you hold the die straight up and down, I can see that the brass case is not hung up on the brass case body, but rather right at the point it is taper crimped.  And since I'm more/less only removing flare put on the mouth of the brass case, that should be all it's doing and simply won't let go of the outside of the case mouth.  I don't think sizing would help.  And my brass cases have no burr on the outside of the brass case mouth where it's being taper crimped.  Either way, the brass cases I'm using are within SAAMI spec and not oversized or something goofy out of "spec."  I'll get some pics later and show you what I said above.  Also, verifying what I said above, it's clear that the sides of my non lubed brass cases don't have any marks on them suggesting they were contacted by anything.  They have the same high polished look the did before I ran them through the die.  I will say that the taper crimp operation does leave a shiny ring around the case mouth (a very very fine ring that you have to look closely to even see, where you can see the brass was worked from the taper crimp/seating die).

You just made me think about slight burs on the case mouths... I know I just read you said there was none.. But did you de burr so you know there is none or are you assuming cause the brass is new?

My suggesting trying the other die is just to rule or or prove out that its simpley the die...

CW

[REDLINE]

I didn't deburr.  Just went by feel.

[REDLINE]

Closeups of die inards showing the taper crimp thingy that free floats inside the main die body, and the bullet seating shaft that floats inside the taper crimp thingy.  Also shows the free floating taper crimp and free floating seating shaft at varying degrees in or out relative to the main die body.  Hope these pics help to solve the issue, worst case scenario being they just suck and I should go with other dies.  Tomorrow I will call Horandy about the issue, but I'm not holding my breath on an issue fixer.

[REDLINE]

Here are pics of the main die body and finished product done in part with this die, along with some brass cases that haven't been loaded yet.  Don't know if they will tell anyone anything related to solving the crimp issue, but here they are:

[REDLINE]

I wish the floating bullet seating stem didn't put rings on the top of my bullets but guess I'll have to live with rings on top of my bullets. :'(