10mm carbine/rifle load

[The_Shadow]

If you are seating and applying crimp in the same station, the bullet is traveling down into the case as the casing is being squeezed it can wrinkle the case and even cause a loose fit with spring back of the casing.  I always seat to depth without any crimp being applied.  Then in a separate step apply the crimp so the bullet is not moving in the process, that way the casing is squeezed gently against the bullet.  Doing it this way insures more uniformity providing the brass are not too long which can crimp a little bit more.

[drsjr1969]

ok guess reloading will be a 6 step process now. i assume wrinkled brass is trashed or can it be saved after pulling the bullet?

[The_Shadow]

It can be straighten out usually by fire forming it back...Run the wrinkled loaded round it into a LEE FCD or into the sizing die one without the decapping pin just to the point, it sort of irons out to fit the chamber.  Shoot it for fun!   Then it should be useable again. 
Depending on how bad the wrinkle is, it may break out that section of brass when shot...if it does it is history!   

[drsjr1969]

OK, second test of 10mm carbine/rifle loads.
180 gr bullets, Winchester primers, and Hodgon H110 powder.

mech-tech 16 inch barrel results.
13.0 gr powder avg. 1306.5 FPS @ 682 FT LBS
13.2 gr powder avg. 1317.3 FPS @ 694 FT LBS
13.4 gr powder avg. 1315.0 FPS @ 691 FT LBS
13.6 gr powder avg. 1382.5 FPS @ 764 FT LBS

Not sure what happen at 13.4 seemed to level off when at 13.6 it showed a larger increase in performance.

[drsjr1969]

Just picked up a pound of Unique and a pound of 800-X mostly for pistol shooting only, but they may work well with a lighter 135gr bullet in the 16 inch barrel.

[The_Shadow]

I doubt you could get enough H-110 or 296 in the case to be a pressure issue...much like that of AA#9
Seeing them start to perform using more powder makes the powder even work better...
Good seeing you try to generate some data using the H-110.

However the IMR800X, LongShot, BlueDot and Power Pistol yield similar results with less powder, even from the pistol length barrels.

When I was developing some 9x25Dillon loads 296 just wouldn't get the bullets moving.
Cartridge 9X25 Dillon formed from Winchester 10mm cases
Loaded with 14.2 grains of Winchester 296 powder
ZERO 121 grain 0.356" JHP (these are the 38Super bullets with good copper jacket)

Gun S&W 1006 with Bar-Sto Match Grade 5.00" barrel

1209 low
1216
1284 high

Now that I have a 6" Barrel I might re run some test...

[drsjr1969]

I've noticed the "twins" 296 and h110 perform better in load data with heavier bullets and the powder grains went down. I just ordered some 200 and 220 gr bullets from xtreme and if my research is correct I will get the same energy with less powder. I've seen load data that supports that due to the heavier bullets holding pressure longer for a better burn and it ends up producing better results. Also bought some Federal Magnum primers to see if that helps at all.

[BEEMER!]

I would suggest that you call Hodgdon and explain what your are doing.  H110/296 are magnum powders for large capacity cases and are designed to work at high pressures only.  You do not have enough case capacity with the 10mm to achieve the required pressures.  Operating below these pressures can be dangerous.

Call Hodgdon and let us know what they say.

[The_Shadow]

Beemer, I think what he has in mind is longer heavier bullets, that will compress the powder charge somewhat and that will yield higher pressures with the same charge weight.  He is correct in that the increased pressure from this would give better burn characteristics.

[BEEMER!]

Beemer, I think what he has in mind is longer heavier bullets, that will compress the powder charge somewhat and that will yield higher pressures with the same charge weight.  He is correct in that the increased pressure from this would give better burn characteristics.

The assumptions sound correct, but in my opinion we are guessing and that is something you do not do when reloading, at least I don't. 

I remember the reloading books saying this about H110/296:  DO NOT REDUCE THIS LOAD!  when I first started loading the magnum rounds.  Maybe they have changed the powders since then.

I do know that if you look at the Hodgdon's 10mm  load data sheets, I do not see any loads for H110/296

.

[drsjr1969]

I would suggest that you call Hodgdon and explain what your are doing.  H110/296 are magnum powders for large capacity cases and are designed to work at high pressures only.  You do not have enough case capacity with the 10mm to achieve the required pressures.  Operating below these pressures can be dangerous. Call Hodgdon and let us know what they say.

I appreciate the advice and I am well aware that H110 was not originally intended for a 10mm pistol and the few 180gr I fired from a 6 inch barrel were lack luster. Having my intentions in mind however "A heavy bullet 200+gr from a 16 inch barrel" you will see that this powder is compatible for said load only. It may not be the best choice but it is workable And I'm working it. Because there is a dynamic change in characteristics when moving from a 4.6 inch barrel to a 16 inch barrel sometimes you have to go outside the box. All 10mm load data that can be found are for pistol length barrels and releasing pressure much sooner after the bullet travels say 5 inches. If the powder manufactures would take the time to work up a 10mm rifle load there would be new data and powders I'm sure of it that are currently out there. Since this type of data isn't going to be published in any reloading manual soon one must use common sense and there scientific mind to calculate predicted results. Or you can always just give it the ole redneck try " hold my beer I'm going to try something new" ..... my attempt at being funny.

Thanks again I'll keep it safe.

[The_Shadow]

Yes there was mention of the secondary explosion effect with reduced charges being too light for the cartridge.  The effect was having too much free space inside the cartridge case, with the very light charge.

H-110 was what I was using in a book load for 38 Specials and even with heavy bullet and crimp it resulted in my one and only squib round.  The primer fired and melted and fused the powder together, without igniting it, the bullet was pushed forward to the forcing cone of the barrel.  I had to use a wooden dowel to drive the bullet back inside the cylinder, enough to allow the cylinder to swing open to clear the pistol.

Winchester used to have a loading listed in there data book, for 296 (same as H-110)
Winchester Load Data 1993 10mm 1993 Winchester load guide
180gr JHP (Winchester)
W296 DNR 12.6grs 0990 fps 22,400 psi

200gr FMJ (Winchester)
W296 DNR 11.6grs 0940 fps 23,600 psi

There was also data for a 190gr JHP bullet, which Winchester had made on special order for a large federal LE agency, but that bullet was never released to the public.  Actually an FMJ bullet, so the data should be directly applicable. Seating depth of this bullet is 1.260"

190gr FMJ (Winchester)
W296 DNR 12.6grs 0970 fps 5" 22,200 psi

Reviewing this data shows just how low the pressures and velocities are for the given loads...to which I think they stopped at the velocity level rather than pushing it to higher levels.
In David's application he is reducing the amount of free space, and basically making more of a compressed loading, this can be done fairly safely with this powder to utilize its potential.

[BEEMER!]

OK

I guess if it works in my 410 shotgun it should work in my .400 carbine.

I just think you have moved to far up the burn chart and Longshot or#9 or even N110 would be better choices.

Good luck

[The_Shadow]

Looking over data on both sides of the 10mm looking at data for the 357 Magnum and 41 Magnum will show a correlation of sorts...their cases are longer than the 10mm so taking the amount of volume into consideration and finding the sweet spot is what David's is doing for the carbine.

357 Magnum 200 gr Sil jacketed bullet seated deep for revolvers 0.1 or 1/10" deeper than seated to the cannelure, COAL 1.590"
296 is show as 12.2 @ 1006 fps max load
H-110 is shown 12.3 grains @ 978 fps max load

357 Magnum 200 gr Sil jacketed bullet seated in cannelure for the T/C 10" BBL as seated in cannelure COAL 1.690"
296 is shown as 14.0 grains @ 1370 fps max load
H-110 is shown 14.5 grains @ 1392 fps max load

41 Magnum  200 gr jacketed bullet
296 is shown at 22.0 grains @ 1346 fps max load
H-110 is shown as 21.0 @ 1324 fps max load

The 10mm, lacks enough space, to put enough of this powder inside to ring out the velocity, but using longer barrels may take advantage of what potential is there.

[BEEMER!]

Quote

"The 10mm, lacks enough space, to put enough of this powder inside to ring out the velocity, but using longer barrels may take advantage of what potential is there."

I agree with this, but you still aren't getting enough pressure to make those powders do what they are designed for.  You just aren't blowing a whole bunch out the barrel end like you do with the magnums.

I hope it works for him.