Message to Police

[Intercooler]

   This one popped up in my feed. I think The Shadow or someone posted a video she did about carrying at some point here.

   I know some of the Sheriff's out West have expressed a line they won't cross. My opinion is most LEO's will be the same if the time should come.

[4949shooter]

I became a police officer so I can boss other police officers around. 

Seriously though, there are some LEO's who will do what's right and there are some who will obey questionable orders because they want to keep their jobs. It's as simple as that.


I won't getting into it any more than this though, because soon the "cop bashers" will be around to start their crap. It's a shame we won't be able to have an intelligent conversation here any more about LEO related topics.

[Intercooler]

    I thought the video was pretty decent.

One law I follow 75% of the time but have been guilty of is seatbelts! It chaps my ass really 

  I think it's one that should be a choice and not a law. If I kill myself by not wearing one it's a choice of mine that doesn't affect anyone but me.

[4949shooter]

I understand the whole choice thing.

That having been said, Intercooler wear your seatbelt!

I have been to more than a few fatal accidents where the person wearing the seatbelt survived, and the person not wearing the seatbelt died.

It took me a long time to get my father to wear his seatbelt....stubborn old guy that he is.

[pacapcop]

Seatbelt technology has come a long way. There was a time some firefighters commented never wear them. They had to cut thru them costing lost time or life. That was then. The lady made me wear them before even starting the car.

[Geeman]

First, and above all, I respect the job they have.  I'm glad I'm not the one that has to respond to horible auto crashes.  I'm glad I don't have to respont to the abusive drunk at 2AM.  I'm glad that 90% of the people I come in contact with are NOT HAPPY to see me.  Thank you who do this job.

I thought that the video was good in the light of self reflection.  Police tactics have become more force, less talk, and yes there are times when the response is way outside "necessary" force, and that can rachet up tensions.  It leads to distrust and makes things more dangerous for both officers and the common folks as well.  Will you call the police on uncle Billie, last time they put him in the hospital.

To me, there are some solutions.  Make the judge give the go-ahead for ALL no-knock searches.  Kicking down the door is asking for bullets to fly.  Anyone can yell "police" when the door is already kicked open and bodies are streaming through it.  Pop a round into the dog, and you really expect to not have rounds not be returned.  I know it would be suicide, but I'd likely do exactly that with being awakened to such an incident.  That is called normal behavior.

One thing I disagreed with on the video was to quit before following an unjust order.  I say simply refuse the order and give your reason why.  Don't make it easy, make them justify your dismissal.  Make them tell the people the reason why they let you go.  Shine the light on the order, who made it, and turn the heat up on the one who made that order.  Power corrupts, and that is the only way to keep power in check.

Greg

[4949shooter]

First, and above all, I respect the job they have.  I'm glad I'm not the one that has to respond to horible auto crashes.  I'm glad I don't have to respont to the abusive drunk at 2AM.  I'm glad that 90% of the people I come in contact with are NOT HAPPY to see me.  Thank you who do this job.

I thought that the video was good in the light of self reflection.  Police tactics have become more force, less talk, and yes there are times when the response is way outside "necessary" force, and that can rachet up tensions.  It leads to distrust and makes things more dangerous for both officers and the common folks as well.  Will you call the police on uncle Billie, last time they put him in the hospital.

To me, there are some solutions.  Make the judge give the go-ahead for ALL no-knock searches.  Kicking down the door is asking for bullets to fly.  Anyone can yell "police" when the door is already kicked open and bodies are streaming through it.  Pop a round into the dog, and you really expect to not have rounds not be returned.  I know it would be suicide, but I'd likely do exactly that with being awakened to such an incident.  That is called normal behavior.

One thing I disagreed with on the video was to quit before following an unjust order.  I say simply refuse the order and give your reason why.  Don't make it easy, make them justify your dismissal.  Make them tell the people the reason why they let you go.  Shine the light on the order, who made it, and turn the heat up on the one who made that order.  Power corrupts, and that is the only way to keep power in check.

Greg

These are good words, Greg. Actually, they are probably some of the best words I have yet read on the internet during police "abuse" discussions.

And I have been involved in a my fair share of such discussions.

[Geeman]

And I have been involved in a my fair share of such discussions.

I, like you, are bothered by the anti-cop stuff that hits the boards.  I don't think enough folks think about what its like to be an officer.  I don't think enough think about the importance of keeping the situation under control, especially with multiple people are involved.  When orders are disobeyed, things can go bad in a hurry.  Like I said, I don't envy your job.

I have thanked every cop for every ticket I have received all my adult life.  I thanked them for doing the job.  There just isn't enough up-side for what you guys do day after day. 

Thank you for the kind words, and thank you for the job you do.

Greg

[Intercooler]

  It just seems every day we hear about yet another new law. I still believe whether I want to wear a seatbelt or not should be my choice not governed by a law.

[sqlbullet]

It is important to also recall the Stanford prison experiment and the Milgram experiment.

I too want to express my respect for law enforcement officers.  I have many friends to this day that work in law enforcement. 

But, every one of you should be constantly thinking about the Milgram experiment and questions like the young lady in the video poses.  And carefully examine your actions and procedures, not in light of department policy, but with the mindset that you may have already been corrupted.

[cmemiss]

I'm sorry that I am such a contrarian, but this young lady is practicing the kind of anti-government sophistry to which so many seem to be using lately.  To me her point seems to be an attempt to convince  LEOs to ignore whatever laws they (or perhaps she) disagree with.  We have created a system of laws over the past 250 or so years that is not always right, but eventually works for us.  I think it was Churchill who said, "the Americans will do the right thing, after they have tried everything else."  We have certainly passed some bad laws over the years; poll tax, separate but equal, and Jim Crow come to mind, but eventually we seem to wake up and do the right thing.  So far as seat belts go, I really don't care for them although I do use then all the time--nagging wife, but so far as it being a bad law, I would argue that if you want to get yourself killed in your car it's okay with me, but if you don't do a good job of it, then in too many cases I end up paying for the county charity hospital if you don't have insurance.  And mandatory insurance--a hot topic right now in health care, is required in order to register a car now in most states, it protects my property for your recklessness.

As a former LEO I will admit that some of us let the power trip go way too far, but if you think about it abuse gave us Maranda and a number of other limits.  It will give us more now that the lawmakers have fallen in love with the Patriot act--what a misnomer.

[enidpd804]

Oathkeepers will do their job and the extreme minority who would do otherwise will not be swayed by an internet video.  Still, it's good to encourage free people to express their feelings to those in public service. 

It has always been a requirement that judges approve search warrants, be they "no-knock" or not.  Entries based on exigent circumstances are absolutely necessary.  Some of the things Boston PD did after the bombing were illegal as heck.  We've done area searches for BG's multiple times, but it never occurred to any of us to force innocent people from their homes at gunpoint. 

It's really hard to sum everything up in an internet post, but most of us are in agreement.   

[Geeman]

It has always been a requirement that judges approve search warrants, be they "no-knock" or not. 

My point was that they first need to make a case for obtaining the warrant, then if they are successful, then they would have to convince the judge for the need of no-knock and have the judge sign on before they are authorized.

In Wisconsin this year there was a motorist that hauled a fawn to a petting zoo tupe of place.  They had arranged to transfer it to a licensed game farm the following day.  It never happened as state, county and local officers stormed the place, complete with air support, all armed.  The fawn was killed on the property and carried out in a bag. 

Whoever came up with the idea of a comando style raid like that against non-criminal taxpayers needed to be fired.  The Governor was pretty torqued off, but that was about as far as it went.

Things like this are getting more common.  Sometimes I think departments want to play with new toys they have received, but its no excuse. 

Legislation NEEDS to be passed that states the judge's authorization must be required before such a stunt is carried out.  The above situation could have been handled by a damned phone call.

Greg

[enidpd804]

It has always been a requirement that judges approve search warrants, be they "no-knock" or not. 

My point was that they first need to make a case for obtaining the warrant, then if they are successful, then they would have to convince the judge for the need of no-knock and have the judge sign on before they are authorized.

In Wisconsin this year there was a motorist that hauled a fawn to a petting zoo tupe of place.  They had arranged to transfer it to a licensed game farm the following day.  It never happened as state, county and local officers stormed the place, complete with air support, all armed.  The fawn was killed on the property and carried out in a bag. 

Whoever came up with the idea of a comando style raid like that against non-criminal taxpayers needed to be fired.  The Governor was pretty torqued off, but that was about as far as it went.

Things like this are getting more common.  Sometimes I think departments want to play with new toys they have received, but its no excuse. 

Legislation NEEDS to be passed the judge's authorization must be required before such a stunt is carried out.  The above situation could have been handled by a damned phone call.

Greg

I understand and appreciate your point, Mr. Greg.  I really do.  The laws are already in place everywhere.  I do this for a living.  If they raided the place without a warrant, it was illegal. I'd be willing to bet there was a warrant signed.  If not, then heads need to be rolled. There is no point in further legislation.  There's already tons of case law. 

[sqlbullet]

Enid, I dont' think he is saying they didn't have a warrant.  I think he is questioning why the warrant was executed with such prejudice (legal sense, not racial).  The point being that likely they could have politely knocked on the door, presented their warrant for the fawn, and after a some conversation left with the creature.

Geeman, in most locales in the US, a no-knock warrant is differentiated from a knock and announce warrant.  Additional probably cause is necessary to document the need to "prevent physical harm to the officers or other persons, the destruction of relevant evidence, the escape of a suspect, or some other consequence improperly frustrating legitimate law enforcement efforts".  So, in reality while it is a one-step process, the process is different and has to probably cause sections for a no-knock warrant.