Cops Shoot at Unarmed Man and Miss.

[Steve4102]

  NYC cops opened fire on an unarmed man(Mr. Broadnax) they thought was pulling a gun out of his pocket, they missed.

Not only did they miss, they managed to wound two women bystanders in the process.

Wait, it's gets better, now the Manhattan district attorney's office persuaded a grand jury to charge Mr. Broadnax with assault, a felony carrying a maximum sentence of 25 years. 

Looks like the DA and the City of NY have just given their cops complete immunity to any wrong doing or incompetence  charges. 

The Bad Guy made me do it, it's his fault .  Even though there was no Bad Guy. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/05/nyregion/unarmed-man-is-charged-with-wounding-bystanders-shot-by-police-near-times-square.html?_r=4&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1386266736-ykwAo5EZxKKqRtR4kMw85A&;

[DAVIDF]

What the DA's office is doing is not that uncommon. The two officers are also being investigated and are on administrative leave. When you are committing a crime you can be held responsible for everything that happens as a result.

[Steve4102]

http://blog.simplejustice.us/2013/12/06/the-chaos-theory-of-liability-for-bad-aim/

[DAVIDF]

I am not saying that the two officers acted properly, that is why they are being investigated. However, Mr. Broadnax being charged for the shootings of two people as a result of police action is no different than a number of other cases. For example, when an two individuals rob a convenience store and one of these criminals is shot and killed or an innocent bystander is killed by police, in most jurisdictions the other criminal (who didn't pull the trigger) can be charged with murder.

Also, you have to remember who is writing that blog. They are not a neutral party.

[Steve4102]

  That's like saying that the two women that were shot are responsible for their own bullet holes because they didn't take appropriate action and run for cover when the LEO pulled out his pistol.

  It's possible that these two "Victims" along with several other bystanders were watching the antics of Mr. Broadnax and the cops and filming video for a future YouTube.   Is it their fault for getting shot, because they did not use good judgment and did not get the hell out of there?  After all it's a well know fact that NY LEO can't hit shit.  They should have known better and went for cover when the first Blue Light showed up.  Their fault!

[DAVIDF]

What I said is nothing like what you just said. Please re-read. I said Mr. Broadnax could be charged. And, the grand jury agreed. If an individual is committing a crime and someone else (including a criminal partner) is injured or killed, the individual committing the crime can be charged with battery, assault, murder, etc., irregardless of who pulled the trigger, ran their car over the pedestrian.....

As for the police officers, again, I said they are being investigated. I didn't say that all of their actions were justified. It doesn't mean that they will not be charged, sued, etc.

[Steve4102]

  Jay Walking is a crime, spitting on the sidewalk is a crime, riding your bike on the sidewalk is a crime.

God forbid you or someone you love gets pulled over for committing one of these "crimes" and the LEO doesn't like the body moves made and opens fire killing a couple innocent bystanders in the process.   Twenty-five to life, is a long time for Jay Walking for someone else's  poor judgment and inability to shoot straight.

[DAVIDF]

Probably exactly what Mr. Broadnax's defense attorney will say!

However, you & I weren't there & from the article you posted didn't sound like he was simply jaywalking. "The man, Glenn Broadnax, 35, of Brooklyn, created a disturbance on Sept. 14, wading into traffic at 42nd Street and Eighth Avenue and throwing himself into the path of oncoming cars". Sounds like he was endagering his life as well as drivers/passengers of vehicles. 

Further into the article it sounds even more as if he posed a significant risk to drivers/passengers "he was talking to dead relatives in his head and that he tried throwing himself in front of cars to kill himself,". Sound like simple jaywalking to you?

[Steve4102]

  You are correct, he was creating a disturbance and committing a crime.  A non-violent crime I might add.

And by your words and opinion committing "a crime" gives cause for the police to open fire and for the DA to charge him with assault.  Where do "you" draw the line as to what crimes get the full DA treatment of LEO protection and which "crimes' do not?

If an individual is committing a crime and someone else (including a criminal partner) is injured or killed, the individual committing the crime can be charged with battery, assault, murder, etc., irregardless of who pulled the trigger,

[Patriot]

  You are correct, he was creating a disturbance and committing a crime.  A non-violent crime I might add.

And by your words and opinion committing "a crime" gives cause for the police to open fire and for the DA to charge him with assault.  Where do "you" draw the line as to what crimes get the full DA treatment of LEO protection and which "crimes' do not?

If an individual is committing a crime and someone else (including a criminal partner) is injured or killed, the individual committing the crime can be charged with battery, assault, murder, etc., irregardless of who pulled the trigger,

Non violent? He was throwing himself in traffic causing cars to swerve and slam on their brakes. He could have caused multiple car accidents and injuries. The cops showed up and told him to put his hands up. He didn't. They fired. His actions caused innocent people to get shot. The cops have lousy aim, but they would never have fired if 1. He wouldn't have been causing car accidents and 2. He would have followed their directions to put his hands up. He is completely at fault. He caused the injuries to bystanders due to his choices. There are tons of cops stories out there documenting abuse of power. You seem to post the ones defending true criminals and it's getting old.

[Steve4102]

  You are correct, he was creating a disturbance and committing a crime.  A non-violent crime I might add.

And by your words and opinion committing "a crime" gives cause for the police to open fire and for the DA to charge him with assault.  Where do "you" draw the line as to what crimes get the full DA treatment of LEO protection and which "crimes' do not?

If an individual is committing a crime and someone else (including a criminal partner) is injured or killed, the individual committing the crime can be charged with battery, assault, murder, etc., irregardless of who pulled the trigger,

Non violent? He was throwing himself in traffic causing cars to swerve and slam on their brakes. He could have caused multiple car accidents and injuries. The cops showed up and told him to put his hands up. He didn't. They fired. His actions caused innocent people to get shot. The cops have lousy aim, but they would never have fired if 1. He wouldn't have been causing car accidents and 2. He would have followed their directions to put his hands up. He is completely at fault. He caused the injuries to bystanders due to his choices. There are tons of cops stories out there documenting abuse of power. You seem to post the ones defending true criminals and it's getting old.

God help us to give this kind of power to the Government.

[DAVIDF]

"When he reached into his pants pocket, two officers, who, the police said, thought he was pulling a gun, opened fire," then while at Belleview, Mr. Broadnax admits to being suicidal. Was he reaching into his pocket trying to make the officers believe he was reaching for a gun in the hopes they were better shots than they were?

I think tomorrow I'll search for a state or country where I can legally play in traffic & cause mayhem

[sqlbullet]

I have two things to say here.  And they are direct.

First, Steve.  As a forum mod, and someone who is at least somewhat like minded, you need to dial it back.  I think you would find far more agreement for you position if you presented it in a more diplomatic fashion.

As far as the incident.  Mr. Broadnax was clearly mentally ill, and needed to be taken into custody for his safety and the safety of others.

However, police officers are not above the law.  In fact, in my training we were repeatedly told that we would be held to a higher standard than the unsworn citizens with whom we shared the streets.

If you will allow me a straw man...

Lets assume that this incident had occured in Terre Haute, IN, or Shreveport, LA, or Reno, NV.  Further lets say that one of us were there before the officers and were attempting to help Mr. Broadnax get out of traffic and sit down until the police arrived.  And the situation had played out the same.  He became threatening and reached into his pocket, and on this heightened act one of us drew our gun and shot two bystanders by accident.

In a free country, our penalty would be the same as that faced by the officers.

I strongly suspect these officers will be exonerated.  At very worst they will be fired and have their POST cert revoked. 

Can anyone here honestly say that would be the same for general joe citizen that was just trying (ineptly) to be a good citizen?  At the very least you or I would face charges of unlawful discharge, public endangerment, have our right to possess guns permanently stripped, and likely spend at least 90 days in jail, if not years, along with fines, legal costs and restitution.

The point that Steve is trying to make is that this case, and hundreds like it each year, illustrate that we live in a police state.  Sure, most of us still have guns, and can post about anything we want in a forum.  Or say what we want to a friend at the grocery store.  But try taking your gun, peacefully, to the state capital with those same friends for a meeting on the steps to have the same conversations.  At best you will need a permit and advance notice to "the man".  And at worst, it will be a gun free zone and you will be flat denied access.

And yes, if I show up in violation of the law, but am peaceful when accosted by an officer, they won't have cause to beat the crap out of me.  But if I challenge there authority at all, they will either find some innocuous action as an excuse to escalate force, or they will ensure I am in a holding cell with others who will do it for them.

This situation, and others like it, illustrate abuses of power that are sanctioned by department policy and our government.  And what really scares me is the number of people who not only are ambivalent on the issue, but rise in defense of the status quo.

Yes, Mr. Broadnax needed help.  He needed to be removed from the public forum and needed to receive treatment.  I could even be convinced that he needed to be treated as a non-compliant felony stop, and that guns may have needed to be drawn.  But there was no follow through on threat assessment before deadly force was used, and that should be a BIG red flag.

[enidpd804]

     sqlbullet, I'm in agreement with most of what you posted.  In fact, I'd say we are very like-minded.     The following is predicated by your post but not really for your benefit. 

     Freedom is evermore at risk with every passing minute.  There is no doubt.  What concerns me is how simple people see "the police" (there's no such thing) as the freedom-takers.  You see, you are responsible for your local police department, your local government, and everything else that goes on in your municipality; as I am for mine.  I live in a suburb of the city I work for which has its own police department.  I volunteered for the town's police committee.  I want a say in what goes on in my town.  I vote.  I go to town board (city council) meetings.  I take responsibility. 

     There's a saying that goes, "you get the police department you deserve."  NYC deserves the crap cops it has because the citizens have allowed it to happen.  What is offensive to those of us who serve as full time cops is the broad-sweeping generalizations.  I strove to get this job because I like helping people and I don't like criminals and bullies. 

     I once saw two firefighters get into a fist fight at a fire scene.  I guess firefighters are violent and unprofessional.  We've had several cases where CCW'ers got into drunken brawls, pulled guns on people without cause, crashed their cars and reported them stolen, etc.  I guess CCW'ers are bad.   That's inane, of course.  I guess some gun forum guys think they're fighting "the man" with these posts, but actually they just divide us.  Almost all cops are pro-citizen and pro-freedom.  I want my father, mother, wife, daughter and myself to be free and have the right to defend ourselves.  I think the 2nd Amendment is our concealed carry permit, but we and our ancestors have failed miserably.  At least in my locale, we serve honorably. 

     sq, you are wrong about this OP.  He is not trying to demonstrate anything.  Read his posts and see how many of them are contrary and vitriolic and how many are about guns or trying to help someone else. 

I signed up for this:

I started this site to provide a forum for fans of the 10mm auto cartridge and the firearms chambered for it. There are no forums specifically for the 10mm. Plenty of forums out there have areas set aside for 10mm talk, however they are loaded with people that want to make inappropriate comments or start drama.

This kind of silliness is not what I thought this site was when I signed up. 

[Patriot]

I signed up for this:

I started this site to provide a forum for fans of the 10mm auto cartridge and the firearms chambered for it. There are no forums specifically for the 10mm. Plenty of forums out there have areas set aside for 10mm talk, however they are loaded with people that want to make inappropriate comments or start drama.

This kind of silliness is not what I thought this site was when I signed up.

You are right of course. But this is the general discussion section. Just one area of the forum. Every section below it is all about guns. As long as they keep politics out of the gun sections we should be good.