My FBI 10 mm Experience

[toddcfii]

This is my first post to the forum.  First off I love the 10 mm round.  I wanted to relay my experience with the FBI using the 10 mm (1076 and MP10).  I went to the FBI academy in mid 1995.  The issue handgun for new agents was the 9mm SIG P228 or P226.  Most everybody was issued the P228 unless you had very large hands (in retrospect makes no sense since they have very similar grip diameter).  I graduated the academy and went to New York.  After about a year I was able to become a firearms instructor (late 1996).  I came back to the FBI office in New York and was at the range a lot.  The head instructor carried a 1076.  I asked him about it and he extolled its virtues.  I asked him about reliability issues and he replied that the early ones were unreliable but that S&W had taken them all back and sent them through the Performance Center (he was not sure if they were actually new guns or just reworked).  He said the reworked ones were completely reliable and shot great.  They had reworked triggers and feed lips among other improvements.  I said too bad I could not get one of those issued.  He replied that he had the last two unissued ones in the FBI available if I wanted one.  I jumped on it.  I got the gun issued and loved it.  It shot great, never had any reliability issues and was very accurate.  The 10 mm round was harder hitting than the 9 mm I was issued and made a bigger hole!  Another bonus was the stainless steel.  I had never had a stainless gun before.  Now I almost won't buy a gun unless it is stainless.  Easy to clean, corrossion free and looks great.

Also, I was issued a 10mm MP10 (MP5 in 10mm).  In New York at the time if you had a 9mm handgun you got issued a 9mm MP5.  If you had a 10mm then you got issued an MP10.  I could really make a ragged hole out to 50 yards with that gun.  The HK MP5 and MP10 are the best shooting guns that I have ever shot.  At FBI Instructor school I got a chance to talk to the guys who did the testing on all the guns and rounds that the FBI considered.  An interesting comparison they did was an MP5 in 10mm vs one in .45.  I don't know if the .45 was a one off or maybe just a barrel??  Anyway they stated they dropped consideration of the .45 when they tried to shoot long ranges with it (100 yards plus).  The .45 barrel had to be raised to such an angle to hit long range targets that they started to hit the ceiling of the gun range.  They decided that .45s in long arms were not a good idea after that.

I will probably remember more later and post it.  But if you have any questions about my use of the 10 mm in the FBI let me know.

[MCQUADE]

Welcome and what a great first post. To you recall if you were issued any of the hi cap mags with your 1076?

[toddcfii]

Welcome and what a great first post. To you recall if you were issued any of the hi cap mags with your 1076?

I was not issued any hi cap magazines.  I never saw or even heard of them until I started reading through this website recently.  They must be very rare in FBI issue for me to have never seen them.

[MCQUADE]

Yeah, they are pretty rare. Maybe just used for test and eval. or maybe issued to the HRT. I have never seen one in person.

[The_Shadow]

toddcfii, welcome to the forum and thanks for the history lesson for your personal experiences! 
Best regards! 

[4949shooter]

Interesting post and thanks for filling us in.

Do we know what the velocity rating on the 10mm FBI ammo was? Possibly a 190 grain bullet at 950 feet per second?

Also, there have been some "internet debates" on how the FBI came to the decision to download the 10mm round and when this occurred. The most credible information out there states the FBI chose a downloaded 10 prior to the adaptation of the 1076. I have read a Colt Delta Elite was used for testing and the agents in the firearms unit felt there was too much muzzle blast with the standard (heavy) loads at the time. They might have cracked a few Delta Elite frames as well!

Perhaps you would be able to shed some light on this for us?

[toddcfii]

Interesting post and thanks for filling us in.

Do we know what the velocity rating on the 10mm FBI ammo was? Possibly a 190 grain bullet at 950 feet per second?

Also, there have been some "internet debates" on how the FBI came to the decision to download the 10mm round and when this occurred. The most credible information out there states the FBI chose a downloaded 10 prior to the adaptation of the 1076. I have read a Colt Delta Elite was used for testing and the agents in the firearms unit felt there was too much muzzle blast with the standard (heavy) loads at the time. They might have cracked a few Delta Elite frames as well!

Perhaps you would be able to shed some light on this for us?

Good questions: 1.  I don't know the velocity.  All duty ammo was Federal, I believe 180 grain.  It was not HydraShock (with the post) like the 9 mm and 38 special the FBI used at the time (147 grain for both).  I asked the testing unit why we did not use the Hydra Shock with the post in the 10 mm and they said their testing revealed that the non posted Federal bullets did as well or better in penetration and expansion as the Hydrashock (not so for the 9 mm bullets).
2. The word in the firearms circles of the FBI was that the choice to download the 10 mm was after the new agents were having trouble qualifying.  So after the 1076 was adopted.  This was all before my time so not gospel.  Also of note was the lengths the FBI went through at the time to make sure they did not hire agents who would not be able to qualify with a pistol.  In the 1995 time frame when I was hired the FBI was making a deliberate effort to hire more females.  They were also concerned that the large majority (almost all) of the agents that could not qualify with a pistol were female.  During my pre hire interview I was given a Sig P228 red gun (non firing) and told to point it at the wall and pull the trigger as many times as I could in a given time (30 seconds?).  I thought it was a little odd and was concerned if this was really a gun safety test.  I learned later that it was to determine if you had the hand strength to pull a double action trigger.  They had determined this was a contributing factor to new agents not qualifying.  Later on they dropped this as a new hire qualification when they were sued by a female applicant that failed the test.  By the way I worked with many fine female agents who were great shots.

3. Your info on them using a Colt Delta Elite may or may not be true.  I do know the firearms testing unit used a device to shoot rounds through a barrel that was not attached to a traditional "gun".  I believe this was done to eliminate as many variables when testing rounds, so as to test rounds and not guns.  BTW the head of the testing unit at the time was an interesting cat.  He seemed to almost be an idiot savant.  And I do not mean that as an insult.  He seemed encyclopedic in some knowledge but clueless in others.  He constantly referred to the Glock being made in "Australia".  He did this many times in front of many groups of people.  I even called him on it once and he ignored me and moved on to something else.

[4949shooter]

Glocks made in "Australia," Lol.. That's good stuff.

The information about the Colt Delta Elite used in initial testing was taken from the book Combat Handgunnery, (third addition) by the late Chuck Karwan. I don't know where Mr. Karwan got his information from. As you said, it may or may not be true. But it wouldn't surprise me that it was used at least initially, because there weren't many 10mm pistols around at the time.

Thanks for the information!

[P33v3]

Great post. As someone who has one of the FBI Issued 1076s it is always good to hear the behind the scenes stories. I can tell you from my experience with the 1076 it is scary accurate no matter what I shoot. It shoots anything from the FBI Lite loads to full power nuclear Underwood stuff. I posted in the General section recently about rewatching the In the Line of Duty: The FBI Murders TV Movie as well as the LE Training video of the survivors recollections. SA Mirales was particularly inspiring and i will always remember him saying to carry as much ammo as you can. Had those Brave Agents had the 10mm that day it would have been a completely different outcome I believe.

[toddcfii]

Yeah watching Mirales in the reenactment pump that shotgun one handed after his arm was shot up and sticking it in the window of the criminals car and then using his revolver to seal the deal was pretty humbling.

[toddcfii]

I may be getting off topic here, but here is a list of guns I was issued and ones I had Bureau approved while I was in the FBI.  (Bureau approved guns were models on a specific list that could be sent to the Quantico armorers for testing and approval of individual guns).  I was in the FBI from 1995 to 2000.  I now work for another federal agency.

Issued:
Sig P228, S&W 1076, S&W Model 13, Glock 23, HK MP5/10
Approved:
Glock 26, Glock 27, Sig P225, S&W Model 60, S&W Model 640, S&W Model 19, Remington 870 Marine Magnum

FWIW I was told I was the first agent to get a Marine Magnum approved.

I was issued the Model 13 when I found out I was going to Firearms Instructor School and wanted a Bullseye gun for some of the quals (didn't work very well so I bought a Model 19 - worked better).

Also, while I was in the FBI I bought an S&W Model 27 FBI commemorative (for $250!).  I bought it NOS at New York Ironworks.  I tracked down the original owner (another agent who had recently retired and I had gone to his retirement party) and asked him the story of how it ended up at the gun store.  Long story but probably for another forum.

[ahoss79]

Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge.

[toddcfii]

Here is a photo below of my FBI issue 1076.  I am in the background in the blue shirt.  This was at a picnic we sponsored for the FAA controllers in New York City.  We gave them a shooting demo and then let them shoot our guns.  I am helping one of the controllers load my Model 19 S&W in the background. 

[MCQUADE]

Now that's what a muzzle should look like! Thanks for posting