Stopping Power by caliber

[DAVIDF]

I have to question Marshall & Sanow's research. For example, how is he obtaining average penetration? They are listing average penetration of a fmj 380acp at 10.9". Only 1.8" more than a 380acp load that achieves an expanded diameter of .58"? In every gel test I've seen with fmj 380 it is penetrating only slightly less than a 9mm or 45. Then they are showing 45acp fmj results some of which, depending on the manufacturer, are penetrating more than 20". That is average, not an extreme. So, how are they finding 215 shootings with Federal 230gr fmj out of a barrel longer than 4" which achieves an average penetration of 20.4"? Seems like pretty big bodies to go thru more than 20" & not exit. A lot of very obese guys apparently were shot with 45acp fmj or multiple felons with the same bullet? Not likely!

"Diameter and Penetration are the average from bullets recovered in actual shootings. All data taken from Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow's book: Stopping Power: A Practical Analysis of the Latest Handgun Ammunition and used with permission from the author."

Maybe one of you who read the book can shed more light on this, but I am skeptical about some of their statistics as was Dr. Martin Fackler among others.

Whoever is quoting that information is mixing up data from the third book, I would guess.  That book has a mixture of gel data and actual shooting results.  I don't remember reading anything about depth of penetration in suspects.  Evan gathered most of the data from shootings he encountered while a detective sergeant in Detroit.  I have every confidence that the information as presented is true and accurate.  I used to read Evan's stuff in the 80s and he wasn't a big 9mm fan.  The data contradicted that, so he'd have to be lying to prove himself wrong.  Most of the criticism I've seen of Marshall is that only shootings involving one torso hit were used and some other statistical stuff that's beyond me.   

I just take the data as it was presented.  It was gathered a long time ago and no data was collected past 2001, so there's nothing on DPX, HST, etc.  I don't think it's the be-all, end-all and neither does Evan.  I definitely think it's worth taking into consideration.

Thanks, that makes more sense. But if that is the case, I would question some of his gel testing as the 380acp fmj results compared with the expanding rounds aren't credible.

I read some of his stuff back in the 80's and/or 90's, but I have never read his books. I do remember some of the things he wrote about penetration with certain loads, but I don't remember his testing methodology for that particular part.

A lot of people have been very skeptical about his writings & at least one has claimed that it appears to be fabricated. Don't personally know!

[enidpd804]

Evan did most of the data compilation and Ed did most of the gel testing, IIRC.  I 'net know Evan and know a few people who know him well.  I've met Ed and also know some folks who know him well.  Full disclosure: I write for one of the magazines that Ed publishes.  They're both deeply religious fellows.  I don't know much about statistics (or math of any kind ), but I'm convinced these are honest folk.  As far as the methodology?  I dunno. 

I've also never done gelatin testing, but I really want to.  It seems like you have to be really careful with preparation and keeping a consistent temperature or you get wonky results.  I wonder if 10% ballistic gelatin has come down in price any...It sounds like fun. 

[DAVIDF]

Warren,

Thanks for your insight. I don't know either of them nor any of their naysayers!

I would love to do gel testing as well. Don't have anywhere to do that however. I had plenty of space as a teeneager, but no gel. Used jugs of water to test hard cast lead loads.

May I inquire as to which magazine you write for?

[enidpd804]

I STILL shoot water jugs for giggles and then take the expanded bullets home.  My kid thinks it's the coolest thing!  I've got an expanded .44 magnum DPX that looks a ceiling fan.    

Police Marksman.  It was a very traditional magazine that ran from the 70s until 2007.  Hendon Media Group revived it for 2013.  It's free online and isn't just for cops, IMO.  Anyone who likes guns can get something from it.  Shameless self-promotion concluded.   

[DAVIDF]

Thanks Warren,

I just looked up the magazine. I haven't been in law enforcement work more than 20 years now, but it will still be an interesting read. It was worth looking up the magazine just for the title of this article: FROM THE CONTROL BOOTH: Your Career Is Too Short To Carry An Ugly Holster  I carry some ugly holsters like the Glock sport/combat, but I no longer have any of those really ugly nylon belt holsters.

I have some Barnes .44 magnum DPX loads for my Henry & Super Blackhawk. I'm not so sure about some of the DPX in lighter calibers, but that is a scary load in .44!

[deerhunter10mm]

you said it right shadow any bullet in the right place