Stopping Power by caliber

[4949shooter]

  The 150gr Cor-Bon has been gel tested already. I sent the 155gr Federal listed in the data to Chopinbloc already for testing. It will be interesting to see!

If you read Evan's book, the 150 grain Corbon had a dismal failure to stop. The shooter gave up his 10mm and procured a revolver in .44 mag because of it. I know 10 shootings is not a good sample, but the incident sticks out in my mind, and I would not carry the Corbon 150 because of it.

That one failure to stop had horrific results.  That's why I like Evan's books so much.  I still have the original, but the other two have been on permanent loan for a while.     All of his research taught him to find a load that he liked and shoot to lockback if the occasion presented itself, because handguns are no bueno.

Most definitely. I try not to loan books out anymore just for that reason. I have a few put there I am waiting to come back. It's been how many years now?

[4949shooter]

     I'm sure today's new bullets have helped those 10mm percentages greatly. If someone would offer or do development on the 10mm like 9mm has it would really prosper. We will never know for sure about the new offerings because it isn't used for law enforcement. I really like the way those Underwood 155 GD's looked like huge Spiders 

Which makes it a shame we don't have a data base to go on. I think as Shadow mentioned, we can look at the existing .40 S&W loads, and knowing we are driving our bullets faster we can extrapolate somewhat. That's why I mentioned the .40 loads in 165 grain are doing well. We are pushing them faster which promises impressive results. Our friend and brother Keith Jones once referred to the .40 S&W 165 grain Gold Dots (the hot load of the two they offer) as a "bad ass bullets." Imagine the effect those boys at 1300 to 1400 will have.

Great thread Intercooler!

[pacapcop]

I think Pittsburgh P.D. is getting away from the .40 and Sioux Falls as well. Pittsburgh to .45 and Sioux Falls to 9mm. Believe it or not, Sioux Falls are claiming recoil 

[denclaste]

The problem is that the bullets designed for the 40 sick and weak are designed to operate at lower velocities and not the velocities we get out of our 10's. Some of the older style 40 cal bullets with the thicker jackets may in fact work better at the velocities we use. Until we have valid tests done on all the currently available 40 bullets we are only hoping the ones out there will do what we want them to when we need them to. It seems that the cast bullet guys are experimenting much more than the jacketed producers are. Lets face it, our beloved 10mm is never going to be a "every persons" cartridge.
Dennis

[4949shooter]

The problem is that the bullets designed for the 40 sick and weak are designed to operate at lower velocities and not the velocities we get out of our 10's. Some of the older style 40 cal bullets with the thicker jackets may in fact work better at the velocities we use. Until we have valid tests done on all the currently available 40 bullets we are only hoping the ones out there will do what we want them to when we need them to. It seems that the cast bullet guys are experimenting much more than the jacketed producers are. Lets face it, our beloved 10mm is never going to be a "every persons" cartridge.
Dennis

True. The Gold Dot most likely would be better backed off a bit in velocity. Just a bit...

Luckily we still have the XTP. It is unfortunate that Hornady doesn't make it in a 170 grain version.

[sqlbullet]

This is why I cast my own.  I can vary the lead alloy to get the penetration and expansion i want at a desired velocity.

[krafcheck]

Bump

Does the one stop = death? Or stopping the individual by death and/or incapacitate?

Must have some bad 44 magnum shooters. 

[Geeman]

An interesting study on the subject.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/handgun-stopping-power

Greg

[DAVIDF]

I have to question Marshall & Sanow's research. For example, how is he obtaining average penetration? They are listing average penetration of a fmj 380acp at 10.9". Only 1.8" more than a 380acp load that achieves an expanded diameter of .58"? In every gel test I've seen with fmj 380 it is penetrating only slightly less than a 9mm or 45. Then they are showing 45acp fmj results some of which, depending on the manufacturer, are penetrating more than 20". That is average, not an extreme. So, how are they finding 215 shootings with Federal 230gr fmj out of a barrel longer than 4" which achieves an average penetration of 20.4"? Seems like pretty big bodies to go thru more than 20" & not exit. A lot of very obese guys apparently were shot with 45acp fmj or multiple felons with the same bullet? Not likely!

"Diameter and Penetration are the average from bullets recovered in actual shootings. All data taken from Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow's book: Stopping Power: A Practical Analysis of the Latest Handgun Ammunition and used with permission from the author."

Maybe one of you who read the book can shed more light on this, but I am skeptical about some of their statistics as was Dr. Martin Fackler among others.

[Rich10]

The one shot stop  - if you're only shooting once in a defensive situation, yer' doing it wrong.

Three things are what make for a one stop shot;
1) Bullet placement is by far the most crucial.
2) Bullet placement is by far the most crucial.
3) Bullet placement is by far the most crucial.

It is but typically can't be counted on (precise bullet placement, that is), so total shots on/hitting target come in at a very close second.

The deer I shot with a 200gr XTP at 130 yards, was a on shot stop.  Stating velocity was 2000 fps from a Winchester APEX 29" BBL muzzleloader in a sabot, impact velocity was estimated at 1300 fps.

I get what your saying, but I don't typically use hunting as an example in this situation (discussing the mythical One Stop Shot).

Shot placement, caliber, bullet selection, total shots on target, etc..... lots of variables in the defensive world.  Bad guys don't just stand there and let you shoot them in the side of the head. 

[The_Shadow]

The one shot stop  - if you're only shooting once in a defensive situation, yer' doing it wrong.

Three things are what make for a one stop shot;
1) Bullet placement is by far the most crucial.
2) Bullet placement is by far the most crucial.
3) Bullet placement is by far the most crucial.

It is but typically can't be counted on (precise bullet placement, that is), so total shots on/hitting target come in at a very close second.

The deer I shot with a 200gr XTP at 130 yards, was a on shot stop.  Stating velocity was 2000 fps from a Winchester APEX 29" BBL muzzleloader in a sabot, impact velocity was estimated at 1300 fps.

I get what your saying, but I don't typically use hunting as an example in this situation (discussing the mythical One Stop Shot).

Shot placement, caliber, bullet selection, total shots on target, etc..... lots of variables in the defensive world.  Bad guys don't just stand there and let you shoot them in the side of the head.

So now you must rely strictly on the ballistic performance of the cartridge you so choose!  Bringing enough of a balance, of accuracy & ballistic potential, to the intended target, to let the projectile of choice, do the work!  Yes, everything is relative!

[enidpd804]

I have to question Marshall & Sanow's research. For example, how is he obtaining average penetration? They are listing average penetration of a fmj 380acp at 10.9". Only 1.8" more than a 380acp load that achieves an expanded diameter of .58"? In every gel test I've seen with fmj 380 it is penetrating only slightly less than a 9mm or 45. Then they are showing 45acp fmj results some of which, depending on the manufacturer, are penetrating more than 20". That is average, not an extreme. So, how are they finding 215 shootings with Federal 230gr fmj out of a barrel longer than 4" which achieves an average penetration of 20.4"? Seems like pretty big bodies to go thru more than 20" & not exit. A lot of very obese guys apparently were shot with 45acp fmj or multiple felons with the same bullet? Not likely!

"Diameter and Penetration are the average from bullets recovered in actual shootings. All data taken from Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow's book: Stopping Power: A Practical Analysis of the Latest Handgun Ammunition and used with permission from the author."

Maybe one of you who read the book can shed more light on this, but I am skeptical about some of their statistics as was Dr. Martin Fackler among others.

Whoever is quoting that information is mixing up data from the third book, I would guess.  That book has a mixture of gel data and actual shooting results.  I don't remember reading anything about depth of penetration in suspects.  Evan gathered most of the data from shootings he encountered while a detective sergeant in Detroit.  I have every confidence that the information as presented is true and accurate.  I used to read Evan's stuff in the 80s and he wasn't a big 9mm fan.  The data contradicted that, so he'd have to be lying to prove himself wrong.  Most of the criticism I've seen of Marshall is that only shootings involving one torso hit were used and some other statistical stuff that's beyond me.   

I just take the data as it was presented.  It was gathered a long time ago and no data was collected past 2001, so there's nothing on DPX, HST, etc.  I don't think it's the be-all, end-all and neither does Evan.  I definitely think it's worth taking into consideration. 

[4949shooter]

Bump

Does the one stop = death? Or stopping the individual by death and/or incapacitate?

Must have some bad 44 magnum shooters.

Just incapacitation.

[4949shooter]

I have to question Marshall & Sanow's research. For example, how is he obtaining average penetration? They are listing average penetration of a fmj 380acp at 10.9". Only 1.8" more than a 380acp load that achieves an expanded diameter of .58"? In every gel test I've seen with fmj 380 it is penetrating only slightly less than a 9mm or 45. Then they are showing 45acp fmj results some of which, depending on the manufacturer, are penetrating more than 20". That is average, not an extreme. So, how are they finding 215 shootings with Federal 230gr fmj out of a barrel longer than 4" which achieves an average penetration of 20.4"? Seems like pretty big bodies to go thru more than 20" & not exit. A lot of very obese guys apparently were shot with 45acp fmj or multiple felons with the same bullet? Not likely!

"Diameter and Penetration are the average from bullets recovered in actual shootings. All data taken from Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow's book: Stopping Power: A Practical Analysis of the Latest Handgun Ammunition and used with permission from the author."

Maybe one of you who read the book can shed more light on this, but I am skeptical about some of their statistics as was Dr. Martin Fackler among others.

Whoever is quoting that information is mixing up data from the third book, I would guess.  That book has a mixture of gel data and actual shooting results.  I don't remember reading anything about depth of penetration in suspects.  Evan gathered most of the data from shootings he encountered while a detective sergeant in Detroit.  I have every confidence that the information as presented is true and accurate.  I used to read Evan's stuff in the 80s and he wasn't a big 9mm fan.  The data contradicted that, so he'd have to be lying to prove himself wrong.  Most of the criticism I've seen of Marshall is that only shootings involving one torso hit were used and some other statistical stuff that's beyond me.   

I just take the data as it was presented.  It was gathered a long time ago and no data was collected past 2001, so there's nothing on DPX, HST, etc.  I don't think it's the be-all, end-all and neither does Evan.  I definitely think it's worth taking into consideration.

Absolutely. I agree 100%.

[DAVIDF]

I have to question Marshall & Sanow's research. For example, how is he obtaining average penetration? They are listing average penetration of a fmj 380acp at 10.9". Only 1.8" more than a 380acp load that achieves an expanded diameter of .58"? In every gel test I've seen with fmj 380 it is penetrating only slightly less than a 9mm or 45. Then they are showing 45acp fmj results some of which, depending on the manufacturer, are penetrating more than 20". That is average, not an extreme. So, how are they finding 215 shootings with Federal 230gr fmj out of a barrel longer than 4" which achieves an average penetration of 20.4"? Seems like pretty big bodies to go thru more than 20" & not exit. A lot of very obese guys apparently were shot with 45acp fmj or multiple felons with the same bullet? Not likely!

"Diameter and Penetration are the average from bullets recovered in actual shootings. All data taken from Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow's book: Stopping Power: A Practical Analysis of the Latest Handgun Ammunition and used with permission from the author."

Maybe one of you who read the book can shed more light on this, but I am skeptical about some of their statistics as was Dr. Martin Fackler among others.

Whoever is quoting that information is mixing up data from the third book, I would guess.  That book has a mixture of gel data and actual shooting results.  I don't remember reading anything about depth of penetration in suspects.  Evan gathered most of the data from shootings he encountered while a detective sergeant in Detroit.  I have every confidence that the information as presented is true and accurate.  I used to read Evan's stuff in the 80s and he wasn't a big 9mm fan.  The data contradicted that, so he'd have to be lying to prove himself wrong.  Most of the criticism I've seen of Marshall is that only shootings involving one torso hit were used and some other statistical stuff that's beyond me.   

I just take the data as it was presented.  It was gathered a long time ago and no data was collected past 2001, so there's nothing on DPX, HST, etc.  I don't think it's the be-all, end-all and neither does Evan.  I definitely think it's worth taking into consideration.

Thanks, that makes more sense. But if that is the case, I would question some of his gel testing as the 380acp fmj results compared with the expanding rounds aren't credible.

I read some of his stuff back in the 80's and/or 90's, but I have never read his books. I do remember some of the things he wrote about penetration with certain loads, but I don't remember his testing methodology for that particular part.

A lot of people have been very skeptical about his writings & at least one has claimed that it appears to be fabricated. Don't personally know!