New Mexico Mother with kids in Mini-Van shots fired

[Intercooler]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57612743/n.m-police-fire-on-minivan-filled-with-kids-their-mom-how-it-happened/

Seems pretty crazy!

[Steve4102]

   Nice!  A traffic stop gone bad and another Bully-with-a-Badge opens fires on an unarmed woman and five kids. 

[sqlbullet]

What I found interesting was the requirement alluded to in the article that the officer was demanding payment on the spot.  Never been to New Mexico, maybe that is how they do things there.  Perhaps they were in the middle of a move and didn't have a new address and this triggered some special procedure.  But a demand for immediate payment definitely could escalate stress on a mother transporting 5 children, especially if she had no money for such an expense.

The key point here is that the officer wailing on a vehicle with a baton is NOT going to de-escalate a situation.  And ultimately, that is what police officers are paid to do.  Ultimately this illustrates that the force continuum as presently taught is not properly understood and implemented by most officers.

[4949shooter]

I didn't see anything on the tape regarding demanding any payment on the spot.

The female driver pulled away from the stop and was thus going to be charged with eluding an officer, or the New Mexico equivalent. The officer had the right to arrest her. As far as him trying to break the auto glass with his baton, the subjects (mother and 14 year old son) were not cooperating at this point by refusing to exit the vehicle. The officer was trying to gain access. The baton use was unorthodox but understandable.

As far as the officers firing on the vehicle, I don't know why they did so but it isn't looking good for them from this vantage point.

[greenwrench]

A local news station here in Phoenix reported that there was drugs in the car. Don't know how they knew that.Still no right to fire on the van.

There was a motorcycle cop that shot a woman in Chandler,Arizona in drug store drive thru maybe 10 to 15 years back an he got off by just losing his job. She had a 3 year old in the back seat an he ran along side the car an when she hit his motorcycle that was at the exit of the drive thur he shot her. This same cop had been involved in other ordeals where people had died. 

[Patriot]

A little clarity is needed here. The officer that fired the shots had just arrived on scene. He was responding as backup to a vehicle that was involved in felony eluding. From what I saw on the news, the officer was attempting to shoot the tires and he had just arrived to the scene and was unaware children were in the van. As far as breaking the window with the baton, completely routine. When I was a military police officer our batons had a removable attachment that was used to break windows.

[Intercooler]

Holy communication break-down 

[Steve4102]

The officer that fired the shots had just arrived on scene. He was responding as backup to a vehicle that was involved in felony eluding. 

  More like fleeing the scene to avoid bodily harm.

Appears she was correct in her assessment of the situation as the first back-up thug on the scene tried to kill her.

[sqlbullet]

I know my opinions about this are unpopular, particularly with my brothers in the LE/former LE community (I am former...More money in IT to feed six kids).

I am not saying what the officer with the baton did isn't SOP.  I am saying the SOP is wrong, and endangers both officers and citizens.  There are many better options, first on the list would be to flatten or boot the tires or barricade the car so it can't leave, then retreat to safety until back-up arrives.  (also probably easier to fix than broken glass).

Think this SOP through for a minute.  If the offender has the capacity to respond violently, like a gun in the car, are they more or less likely to shoot you if you start breaking windows?  If they don't have the capacity to respond violently, preventing them from leaving and giving them time to cool off, and time for backup to arrive, will almost always de-escalate the situation. And result in the officer being back on patrol faster and with less paperwork, than breaking glass, engaging in a chase and firing shots.

There is a time to use a baton to break a window.  But it is almost never in the heat of the moment, fueled by adrenaline in a situation you don't fully control.  And as this video illustrates, the result is often that you lose what minimum control you did have.  People that are not behaving rationally usually given a little space and time return to rational behavior.

There were two driving factors in my exit from the LE community.  First was the allure of greater money in IT.  Second, I was sick falling into situations another officer had revved up and having to de-escalate both an offender and a fellow officer.  There were guys on my shift that were great, but they were the minority.

To our LE here, I am certain I would have enjoyed working with each of you, and certainly am laying no accusations here.  You all seem quite reasonable.  I wish you the best. 

I implore you to think through these scenarios with the most critical eye however.  We review these types of videos NOT to justify what was done, but to evaluate, in the most critical fashion, what could be done better in the future.

[Steve4102]

Think this SOP through for a minute.  If the offender has the capacity to respond violently, like a gun in the car, are they more or less likely to shoot you if you start breaking windows?   

If the offender has the capacity to respond in self defense   like a gun in the car, they are  within their right to shoot you for breaking their windows and open firing on them.  Time to fight back and put the Bullies with a Badge in their place and treat them like any other "Threat of bodily Harm". 

[Patriot]

Please explain how leaving a traffic stop before the officer is finished issuing the citation is self defense. Next, explain how trying to escape while being lawfully arrested for leaving the scene of ticket being issued is self defense. Then, explain how committing the crime of felony evading is an act of self defense.

[Steve4102]

   The actions of the officer caused her to fear for her safety and the safety of her children.  Please explain how fleeing the scene to find a safer more populated place  is felony evasion.  Please explain how she was not justified in her fear as she was unarmed a fired upon. 

  She was in fear for her life and fled. Justifiably so.  These two bullies with a badge tried to kill her over a traffic stop.  Justify this, please!

[Patriot]

 

   The actions of the officer caused her to fear for her safety and the safety of her children.

Sorry. The original "action of the officer" was him writing her a ticket. He wasn't threatening. He wasn't rude. He wasn't wearing a Friday the 13th hockey mask. He walked away to get his ticket book to write a citation for 71 in a 55. He turned his back to walk back to his patrol car and she drove away. Nobody has the right to drive away from a traffic stop by an officer in uniform and a marked police vehicle. She was being detained only long enough to be issued a traffic ticket. She violated the law and got pulled over. Its preposterous to think she can ignore the officer and just drive away.  The original officer did not fire the shots. He used minimal force; first, by using hand to hand, then when he was assaulted he brought out his taser, and after the 14 year old that assaulted locked himself in the vehicle, he used his baton to break the window in attempt to apprehend the criminal. The breaking of the window with the baton and shots fired occurred only AFTER she broke at least three major laws, 1. Evading, 2. Resisting arrest. 3. Assaulting an officer. And the 14 year old assaulted an officer, thereby helping his mother escape. That's 3 felonies and one misdemeanor committed before the officer even took his taser or baton out of their holsters. Let's go through that again: 3 FELONIES AND 1 MISDEMEANOR WERE COMMITTED BEFORE THE OFFICER ATTEMPTED TO USE ANY TYPE OF WEAPON. F-E-L-O-N-Y. Do I need to make it more clear than that? Here, I'll walk you through it in steps:

1. Mini-van speeding (law violation #1- traffic)
2. Officer makes contact, says he will issue citation
3. As officer walks to his patrol car, minivan drives away (Law violation # 2 - New Mexico evading law is a misdemeanor)
4. Pulls over the minivan again, attempts to arrest driver, who resists (Law violation #3 - felony resisting arrest) and assaults officer (law violation #4 - assaulting a police officer, felony)
5. 14 year old assaults the officer (Law violation #5 - assaulting a police officer, felony)
6. Officer draws taser as 14 year old locks himself in the vehicle.
7. Officer uses baton to break vehicle window in attempt to apprehend suspects that have committed felonies.
8. Minivan drives away AGAIN (Law violation # 6&7- evading and resisting arrest)
9. Backup officer arrives and fires shots at vehicles tires. I agree, not a good idea. However, the officer that fired the shots had just arrived on scene. He either didn't know there were children in the minivan, or if he did, how is he to know these children aren't kidnapped? She was doing everything in her power to ESCAPE CAPTURE. He could have been trying to save those kids from a crazy woman.

[sqlbullet]

If you guys wanna stop yelling at each other...that'd be great!

The officer lost control of the situation and escalated it when he pulled over the driver the second time.  I am not saying she hadn't evaded.  I am saying the officer didn't know her intent, wasn't showing empathy for the drivers possible mental state, didn't take step to prevent a second evasion, and immediately engaged the offender in a hostile and verbally abusive tone.  The officer appears to need several remediating classes in verbal judo.

The fact that the woman was calm during the first stop, and readily complied when the officer pulled her over for the second stop certainly indicates to me that she failed to understand something in the first encounter.

I certainly don't see an argument of self-defense here, and I agree that the officers reasonably followed procedure up to the point the shots were fired.  But I certainly don't think they acted as a well-trained officer of the law should in a free society.  And I think the officers lack of skill escalated the situation without need.

[4949shooter]

The woman was calm during the first stop, right up until she pulled away and thus committed the crime of eluding an officer (as well as the crime of obstruction).

I agree the officer didn't quite handle this stop as well as he should have. He looks to me to be a young officer, possibly even a rookie. That having been said, things can go down hill awfully fast on a motor vehicle stop. As Sqlbullet mentioned, he lost some control, which is the very last thing you want to do while on a stop or in any law enforcement situation for that matter. As to the officer who fired on the vehicle, as Reaper mentioned this was not a good idea. We don't know what New Mexico's policy is on firing at fleeing vehicles (or the tires of same), but hopefully we will find out soon.

Grim Reaper is only trying to talk some sense with Steve. The problem is, Steve's sense of law enforcement is severely misguided, as evidenced from his posts.