What is your 10mm hunting rig?

[4949shooter]

Fred Eichler took a lot of heat last year for saying he hunted coyotes with .223 fmj rounds. I don't agree with using fmj on coyotes, but a shot through the lungs will kill a coyote just as dead as a Nosler ballistic tip. The difference being that the coyote will in all probability run off and die somewhere unrecovered.

[Yondering]

Whoever Fred was, he deserved to take some heat for that. I've heard that stupid expression too - "It kills them just as dead". The difference being the time it takes the animal to die, and the amount of time it suffers. I look at it this way - if you were to be shot and killed, which would you prefer, "Bang-flop" or "bleeding and screaming"?

[4949shooter]

Like I said, I personally don't agree with using fmj. But really, the only difference is the animal may not be recoverable. It's no different than bow hunting. There is no hydrostatic shock associated with an arrow hit. The animal runs and dies elsewhere. The only deer I ever shot with an arrow that dropped immediately was one I hit in the spine with a shot fired from a treestand. Same thing with fmj. A shot through the heart or lungs will kill it. You just may not find it.

Dead is dead.

[4949shooter]

Whoever Fred was, he deserved to take some heat for that. I've heard that stupid expression too - "It kills them just as dead". The difference being the time it takes the animal to die, and the amount of time it suffers. I look at it this way - if you were to be shot and killed, which would you prefer, "Bang-flop" or "bleeding and screaming"?

You are confusing dropping an animal with hydrostatic shock with killing an animal. In police work, we use hollowpoints, not because they "kill" better, but because they have a greater capacity to stop an assailant. The Texas DPS Highway Patrol had used .45 pistols for a while. The .45 was killing suspects, but the suspects would run off and die, or they would have the ability to fight back. Then they switched to the .357 Sig round, which had a better ability to drop an attacker quickly due to hydrostatic shock. The perps hit with .45's bled out and died. But if they aren't stopped quickly, the felons can fight back and injure police officers.

So getting back to your question, if I am in a gun fight and I am shot and "bleeding and screaming," I will have the ability to fight back.

[Yondering]

You are confusing dropping an animal with hydrostatic shock with killing an animal.

I'm not confusing anything, but good job trying to confuse the point. It sounds like the ethics of getting the most humane kill possible don't matter to you either? Recovering the animal is a secondary concern, IMO, although it follows hand-in-hand with a clean kill. I still want a clean fast kill even if it's just varmints that I don't care to recover. By clean kill I mean destroying important vitals so the animal dies quickly, instead of running off and dying at some later time. The point of the discussion here is that FMJ bullets are not the best or most efficient way to accomplish this.

BTW "Hydrostatic shock" is a dumb term, coined by someone who thought it sounded cool didn't know what the word meant. Hydro refers to fluid, static of course means "still", or not in motion, the opposite of dynamic. Doesn't have a whole lot to do with what happens during a projectile impact. "Shock" is real, but it isn't static.

[4949shooter]

Relax there big guy.

I agree that expanding bullets should be used for hunting. But yes, you are confusing the two. The only thing that makes it ethical about kiling an animal on the spot is recovery of the meat and fur. Otherwise, fmj bullets WILL kill with a carefully placed shot. Either way the animal is dead.

I threw the bait out there and you took it hook, line, and sinker. I was playing devils advocate.

[DM1906]

"Hydrostatic Shock" is the correct and proper term.  The term "static" is not referring to the tissue or the projectile, but the process of hydraulic transfer of wave energy.  The fluid (hydro) doesn't move (static).  The shock wave travels through the fluid.  It's a "hand-off" of energy at a molecular level.  While after a shot, the tissues, solids and fluids do appear to have moved (no longer "static"), such as in a wound channel, this occurred long after the hydrostatic shock has already came and went.  The affect of hydrostatic shock in itself will stop/kill an animal, if the affect is ideally located and of enough energy.  The "mush" result is an example of the affect.  The shock energy will actually break molecular cohesion.

The same principal has been sinking submarines for a hundred years.

[Ramjet]

Wow I joined just so I could tell you guys that you are blowing this topic way out of proportion here.

The guy obviously uses this load on small game and it is very effective for intended purpose. Hence the pictures of taken game.

Reading some of this you would think the WFN of which I have taken Elk size game with is the most ethical bullet to hunt with. Good to know Elmer Keith stills lives in some of you. Ethics is more than just bullet selection it includes the skill and to get close and the skill to be able to shoot well enough to disrupt the vital tissue to the degree that damage is not only temporary but permanent and it takes the life out of a critter. I would dare say not one person on here could live up to the standard to have never taken a shot that was not 100% guarantee to dispatch the critter cleanly and quickly. But to judge this guy (who I think is messing with some of you) (and for good reason I might add) because he uses that ammo to dispatch some critters is judgmental and really arrogant to say the least.

So, wider the meplat the more effective, because of the temporary disruption of critical tissue? Well in that case a hard cast wadcutter should be stellar.......................right? .............Well not if you hit that animal in the leg. So what's more unethical...................poor bullet choice or not practicing enough or not getting close enough to guarantee shot placement?

See some the posts are ridiculous to say the least calm down take breath and give the guy his due he has taken some really nice animals with 10mm the pics are great proof and he gets his due from me "nice shooting and nice critters". I could care less if you used longbow and field tips nice shooting and great job.

[justin10mm]

Great, now they are going to accuse me of creating a fake second account so it looks like I have someone on my side.   

[justin10mm]

If I had some Blazers on hand I'd go shoot some more critters and post the pics just to salt the wound a little more. 

[Ramjet]

He he thats funny  maybe not on any side just looking at this the way I read it not putting a bunch of emotion and unreasonable computer persona behind it.

Funny people not seeing each other face to face to read the faces and emotion or roll eyes really get outta hand on some of the dumbest things on the net. "Nice critters and nice shooting" from NE Wisconsin (a long ways from TX).

[Yondering]

I'm not sure how my replies came across as blowing this out of proportion, or emotional, or "unreasonable computer persona". I saw it as just a discussion on using what's cheapest vs what's best. Different priorities for different people, I guess.

[Ramjet]

Well from the outside looking in now from inside looking out.

It was not just a "discussion" you went on the "attack" not just offering your opinion but thrusting it upon everyone almost as to show us all how much you know about hunting with lead bullets and the results of using good hard cast bullet. The poor guy was messing with ya the more you took the bait the more he messed with ya. He said little as to what you were eluding too until you cornered him. There is little question in my mind that you are knowledgeable and Justin10mm is just as knswledgable about what works for him in the application he used those bullets in. You came are across judgmental and condescending in your posts. The man was just showing off his success and the ammo he used for that success. He did not deserve to get a lecture on ethics and or what you consider ethical bullets to use to despatch critters or for hunting. The persona comment comes from the fact that you will not let it go.

So I just could not take it anymore and was a lurker till I just could not sit back and watch you continue. Sorry for being harsh but that's how I saw it.

Now I say we get back to the topic that is hunting with the 10mm.

I like the 180 grain XTP loaded over a dose of Longshot ignited with Federal Large Pistol Mag Primer my shots are held to about 50-60 yards with the 10mm.

I am going to do some testing with the SD Barnes Solid Copper HP out of the 10mm at high velocity to see how it does just cause I like to play with that sort of stuff. I also am going to try some heavy for caliber Hard WFN cast bullets to see how they feed and how they act out of my rig. I once had a 475 mould made to shoot full wad cutters still have the mould I think I would load those to about 700 FPS out of my 475 Linebaugh a really fun load but they would shoot the head clean off a chipmunk that needed dispatching.

[sqlbullet]

Or maybe.....

Yondering and Justin were baiting Ramjet into finally joining the forum

[Yondering]

If I came across as condescending to justin10mm, I apologize. We'll just agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

4949shooter, if I'd realized you were just baiting me for a response, I wouldn't have wasted my time replying to you. You resurrected a discussion that had been over for a while, so I thought you were serious. I'll keep it in mind in the future.

I'll let it go now.