What is your 10mm hunting rig?

[4949shooter]

From reading this thread, it is fairly obvious that Justin is using the 200 rain Blazers to dispatch game that has been caught in traps. There is a difference between dispatching a trapped, wounded animal and hunting a free animal, which you would want to stop and recover without having to track an animal that you might lose. Correct me if I am wrong, Justin.

Why not use FMJ rounds for dispatching trapped or wounded animals? The Blazers are cheaper and they seem to be getting the job done for him.

[Yondering]

The bit about the traps is not obvious to me. Maybe I'm missing something? Sounds to me like he's hunting with FMJ's "because they are cheap". I don't have much respect for that.

Using FMJ's for trapped animals, to avoid pelt damage, might be different, I suppose, but he didn't say that.

[4949shooter]

He tells us here he used his G20 to dispatch the trapped bobcat pictured prior:

This particular Texas cat was caught with a leg hold trap and dispatched from about 15 yards. Ammo was CCI 200gr. Blazer TMJ. A load I have found works surprisingly well on critters, better than any other FMJ load I have tried anyway.   

Then here he speaks of dispatching small game and varmints. He further states he would not use the FMJ rounds on big game.

Why do you think hard cast bullets work so well at killing? Its surely not because they expand.

It is the large flat nosed profile with sharp shoulders that rip flesh and cut arteries. A copper jacked flat nose does just as good a job at this as a hard cast lead bullet of the same profile. If you notice, 200gr. Blazers have a fairly large flat point with relatively sharp shoulders. In my experience they dispatch small game and varmints well enough. Would I intentionally use this load for big game? Probably not because the velocity is on the mild side although they would work in a pinch.


On a side note this reminded me of an episode I saw of I think Alaskan State Troopers or something similar. They went on a call about a man that shot and killed two moose in his yard that were attacking his dog. They showed the gun he used, a Glock 20, and loaded in the magazine were aluminum cased Blazers!         

I could be wrong, though I think we could cut him a little slack.

[justin10mm]

I didn't make this post to start any kind of argument. I was just contributing to the hunting rig theme. If someone doesn't like my ammunition choice that is their problem not mine.

I'd like to see some evidence of other posters first hand hunting experience with the 10mm cartridge. I've posted what few pics I have but have not seen any from those that have such a seemingly strong opinion about what bullets work or don't work. Looking at my notes I have dispatched/killed with the 10mm 16 coyotes, 7 bobcats, several coons, 1 fox, 1 hog, 1 deer, several squirrels, many rabbits, a few skunks and a few other odds and ends that I can't think of right now.

The gauntlet has been thrown down, put up or shut up.           

[Yondering]

He further states he would not use the FMJ rounds on big game.

I read that the other way; looks like he would use them, if they went a little faster. Not only is this unethical, but clearly illegal in most states, and for good reason.

It's the thought process of using the cheapest bullet you can get away with, that I take issue with. It's hard to respect a decision that counts a dollar or two in your pocket as more important that ethical hunting. I have no problem with it if that's all you had available, or was all you could get. I don't think that's the case here.

[sqlbullet]

I tend to agree with Yondering on this.  There is a reason for a myriad of text books on terminal performance, why every reloading magazine I buy has articles on the subject and why most states require some kind of expanding ammunition for hunting.  Expanding bullets kill faster and with less suffering than "ball" ammo.

I don't have a hunting pedigree to flaunt.  I don't really enjoy hunting.  I grew up butchering cows on the farm and have dispatched a more than I can remember with a simple 22 LR shooting a lowly 40 grain high velocity slug.  One shot per cow everytime.  I remember one busy day that started with four shots yielding four downed yearling steers.

By the above logic, that simple Winchester 22 single shot should really be about all I need for any game up to about 1,000 lbs in North America.

Justin, we aren't picking on you.  Hunting with non-expanding ball ammunition is considered by the hunting community to be unethical and in most states is illegal.  We are offering our comments by way of education, not to troll you or belittle you.

And, Yondering gives me my lumps all the time on a variety of topics   Keeps me on my toes.

[REDLINE]

No doubt there is intelligence in choosing the right bullet for the task at hand.  BUT, to be nitpicky about what bullet design is used from a handgun is as much of a joke as arguing a handgun shouldn't be used for hunting at all when shotguns and rifles are available, if one really wants to get down to brass tacs.

It's one thing to shun someone for using 223 on deer which many thousands of hunters do every year (that in my book is a complete joke, I don't give a you-know-what what bullet is used in 223, as a 223 is not a decent deer cartridge, period).  But as for 10mm 200gr FMJ Blazer?  Not so big of a deal unless you're going to also shun folks away from any hard cast lead load.

Personally, as far as the 200gr Blazer ammo goes, I'ld be embarrassed to say I use it at all outside of plinking.  May as well use a 40S&W at that point.  200gr Blazer ammo is nothing more than an embarrassment to 10mm anyway.  Either way, nothing wrong with using 200gr Blazer ammo for dispatching animals in traps, or for hunting in general, the likes of deer and stuff.

[Yondering]

But as for 10mm 200gr FMJ Blazer?  Not so big of a deal unless you're going to also shun folks away from any hard cast lead load.

Cast hunting bullets do not perform the same way as FMJ. Thinking the two are the same is a common mistake from those who don't understand the concept behind a flat nose hunting bullet.

[sqlbullet]

Cast hunting bullets do not perform the same way as FMJ. Thinking the two are the same is a common mistake from those who don't understand the concept behind a flat nose hunting bullet.

Not to mention a bullet cast from 30:1 or 20:1 or even 16:1 is not ball ammo because it will expand.  I think many of the original hollow-point designs were to try to mimic the terminal ballistics seen in a "hard-cast flat nose" bullet of these alloys.

Modern design has given us some incredible JHP designs, but a WFN from 16:1 is still a very devastating, expanding, deep penetrating bullet design.

[4949shooter]

He further states he would not use the FMJ rounds on big game.

I read that the other way; looks like he would use them, if they went a little faster. Not only is this unethical, but clearly illegal in most states, and for good reason.

It's the thought process of using the cheapest bullet you can get away with, that I take issue with. It's hard to respect a decision that counts a dollar or two in your pocket as more important that ethical hunting. I have no problem with it if that's all you had available, or was all you could get. I don't think that's the case here.

I asked Justin to correct me if I was wrong concerning his use of the Blazer rounds. So far he hasn't.

I think we can all agree there is a difference between a hunting situation and the ethical dispatching of trapped or wounded animals.

[justin10mm]

Not only is this unethical, but clearly illegal in most states

Ethics are like arss holes.  Not illegal in my state.

To 4949shooter just to clarify in the past I have used blazers on both trapped and free roaming critters.

talking points

*CCI 200gr. Blazers are listed as having the same muzzle velocity as Hornady 200gr. XTPs

*A good hard cast bullet should ideally not expand/deform, expansion reduces the HC's one strong point "penetration"

[REDLINE]

Cast hunting bullets do not perform the same way as FMJ. Thinking the two are the same is a common mistake from those who don't understand the concept behind a flat nose hunting bullet.

Sure, to a degree.  By the same token, to suggest all variations of cast flat nose hunting bullets perform the same would be just as much of a mistake.

[4949shooter]

To 4949shooter just to clarify in the past I have used blazers on both trapped and free roaming critters.

Thanks for elaborating Justin.

I stand corrected.

[Yondering]

Cast hunting bullets do not perform the same way as FMJ. Thinking the two are the same is a common mistake from those who don't understand the concept behind a flat nose hunting bullet.

Sure, to a degree.  By the same token, to suggest all variations of cast flat nose hunting bullets perform the same would be just as much of a mistake.

You're absolutely correct, there are lots of variables to play with in casting your own, to produce a bullet that works exactly as you intend. There are also plenty of cast bullets that are not good for hunting, that will perform very much like an FMJ. The comparison here though is FMJ vs a correctly designed cast hunting bullet, whether that's a hard non-deforming wide flat nose, or some sort of deforming design.

The idea that a "hard cast" hunting bullet doesn't/shouldn't deform is overly simplified; the range between fragmentation and non-deforming is infinitely variable with cast bullets, you can make them do whatever fits the intended use.

There's no reason a cast flat nose hunting bullet has to be non-deforming for deer or smaller animals. It's just a matter of balancing penetration vs expansion and tissue damage.

[REDLINE]

Cast hunting bullets do not perform the same way as FMJ. Thinking the two are the same is a common mistake from those who don't understand the concept behind a flat nose hunting bullet.

Sure, to a degree.  By the same token, to suggest all variations of cast flat nose hunting bullets perform the same would be just as much of a mistake.

You're absolutely correct, there are lots of variables to play with in casting your own, to produce a bullet that works exactly as you intend. There are also plenty of cast bullets that are not good for hunting, that will perform very much like an FMJ. The comparison here though is FMJ vs a correctly designed cast hunting bullet, whether that's a hard non-deforming wide flat nose, or some sort of deforming design.

The idea that a "hard cast" hunting bullet doesn't/shouldn't deform is overly simplified; the range between fragmentation and non-deforming is infinitely variable with cast bullets, you can make them do whatever fits the intended use.

There's no reason a cast flat nose hunting bullet has to be non-deforming for deer or smaller animals. It's just a matter of balancing penetration vs expansion and tissue damage.

Agreed.