LEO and Accuracy?

[Steve4102]

  I have been reading a lengthy thread over at the Cast Boolits forum on the proficiency and accuracy of many of our LEO.  All-in-all it's not good, not good from both fellow  LEO's perspective  and the average citizens.

  It seems as though the LEO of today carries his/her sidearm more for show than for an actual working tool.  Some LEO even went so far to say that they are "outcasts" or "rebels" in the eyes of their fellow LEO if they are shooters and handloaders and can actually hit what they are aiming at.

  Although this does not surprise me, it both saddens me and angers me.  It's akin to the Dumming down of our education system.  Instead of requiring teachers to teach and students to learn we just reduce the standards and graduate the illiterate because it's easier and Politically Correct .  Same for the LEO's out there, instead of forcing them to be proficient and accurate with their firearms, we reduce the standards in which to qualify,  then cite $$ and budget as an excuse.

  Anyhow this got me to thinking( I know bad idea).  I'm sitting here on my PC bitching about others shooting skills, maybe it's time for me to look in the mirror and see if I can still hit what I am aiming at. So, I did.

  I have a whole list of reasons why my shooting was not that great from bad eyes to recent back surgery to wind, etc.etc, but these are not excuses for poor marksmanship, they are reasons to practice. If you can't hit what you are aiming at, find out why and fix it or put the gun up for sale.

  So, I took my newly BOB Tailed RIA 10MM to the woods with some 175gr Lee TC Boolits sized to .402 and Tumble lubed with 45/45/10.

   Target was a left over political sign at 25 paces.  I called it 25 yards, but it could have been less, I did not use a rangefinder.

   My goal was to draw my pistol, fire three rounds in about 3 seconds,I think I took more like 5-6 seconds, then holster and repeat.  It's been a long time since I did this and let me say, it was a challenge for me to come up on target right out of the holster.  That is what slowed me down the most. 

  Here is what I came up with.



  Next is to do the same type of test while moving.  Hope I'll be able to find my brass. 

 

 

[pacapcop]

Scary but true. Esp in big city dept's. One thing I work on is right up in front of target. It not difficult, but a lot of shooters I see at range park themselves right at 7,10 and 15 yrds, and that's it. That up close and shooting from the hip is going to be a likely scenario. Another is the 50 and out shot. I often ponder if a bad guy is lighting up the scene with a semi rifle and I can't get close, that's when im glad I have a 10. Head shots, can't let that go by. Kevlar.

[DAVIDF]

It has been more than 2 decades since I worked in law enforcement. The people I worked with were generally proficient with handguns but few were expert & none that I knew were competition shooters. The training was excellent in that it brought people from no experience with a firearm ever to fairly proficient in an intensive week. Very few of them grew up shooting like I did.

With shotguns it was an entirely different matter. Most were not proficient & I would certainly feel better with a partner armed with a pistol only. The problem was the lack of training with firearms other than a handgun.

However, I never saw or felt than anyone frowned on any of us that were more proficient or handloaded, hunted, etc. In fact, it was usually the opposite. I was always given respect & compliments for being proficient with my handgun.

[sqlbullet]

It has been over 10 years since I shot my last police qual.  It was a challenge for some, which I thought a real problem, but the department didn't.  My personal take then and now is that most LE are not really gun guys.  They may like shooting, but they don't subscribe to handgunner, rifle, rifleman, handloader and guns like a gun guy does.  And most think minute of pie plate at 10 yards is pretty good shooting.

For the last couple of years I haven't drilled as hard as I should.  Now that the house is winding down, I hope by winter to start getting back to the range occasionally.  When I do, I plan to start with the new FBI qual:  http://www.usacarry.com/new-fbi-qualification-course/

I have only one of two friends left in LE at this point.  They both take shooting seriously and regularly shoot a clean qualifier.  But they inform me that they are still the outliers as far as department accuracy is concerned.

[The_Shadow]

You're absolutely correct proficiency comes with regular practice.  And I will say I need to practice more than I get to. Too often lately I have been shooting over the chrony, instead of target acquisition & proficiency drills.

BTW, most Law Enforcement agencies are geared toward apprehension rather than gun battles, due to possible other officers or by-standers being hit, liabilities and law suits even from the perp or perp's family.  Public Relations and investigations bringing the departments into the spotlight as well.

Many departments are switching back to 9mm again because control-ability and the cost of ammo. 

[Steve4102]

I get to. Too often lately I have been shooting over the chrony, instead of target acquisition & proficiency drills.
 

  Me as well.  I'm spending most of my range time testing bullet/powder/alloy/ lube, etc.etc. off a bench/rest looking for that perfect combo and I'm Neglecting my shooting skills. 
  Time to turn it around!  Practice first, then if there is time,  do my ammo accuracy tests. 

[4949shooter]

Interesting topic. Good shooting OP, by the way. 

I agree with Pacapcop (as usual), in that the city cops don't shoot as well as their country brethren. I have the opportunity to work for a large agency that encompasses both city and rural areas, and everything in between. I have seen first hand that the rural type, hunters, etc., people who grew up shooting guns are for the most part more proficient with firearms than the city boys.

We must remember that most police officers as mentioned above look at firearms as just a tool. This is a tool they must master amongst hundreds of other aspects of police work that must be mastered and maintained. There are some LEO I have seen every qualification barely pass. There are other LEO who are crack shots that would put many of us to shame. Most LEO fall in between, guys and gals who don't have a problem qualifying but don't shoot perfect scores either. Also, we must remember that marksmanship skills are only one portion of what it takes to win a gun fight. The other factors to be considered are tactics, use of cover, and the will to win. I'm not dying on the side of my highway, if I can help it.

Yes, as a younger cop I was once referred to as a "gun nut" or a "gun doosh." Now people come to me for my advice and opinions. I think the law enforcement attitude towards training has changed over the years. Training and firearms proficiency is accepted today. Now, if you don't shoot you are looked upon as being foolish, and people who have trouble qualifying have become "that guy."

[DM1906]

I too, was a "gun nut". From the time I was a rookie, to retirement. Still am. We were required to qualify quarterly. The range was open for 3 days, every month, and open to any officer. Ammo was provided, and there was no limit to how often you could use the range and ammo, giving way only to on-duty qualifiers, or alphabetically-required shooters (required month determined by last name). As long as everyone qualified once during that quarter, they were good to go. There was no excuse for anyone to not get in enough shooting practice to become proficient, and stay that way. I loaded my own, and shot several hundred rounds with my duty gear, in every situation I could imagine, at least once a week. When the range was open, I would use up as much time and county ammo as I could get away with. There were maybe 3 or 5 others over the years that did the same. This was pathetic. As said above, most officers were, at best, minimally proficient. Many of them only after their 2nd or 3rd time through the course. Who were the best, overall, shooters? The old guys with the wheel guns. Sure, only 6 (or 5) rounds at a time, slow to reload, etc..... BUT, more vital hits in less time, overall. It had nothing to do with the old argument of "revolvers are more accurate", which was really an excuse more than anything, especially at only 7 yds. or less. It was the mentality, and the guys using them. The "younger" crowd were almost exclusively "auto shooters", never having much, if any, revolver experience. Spray 'n Pray shooters, for lack of a better term, we called them. Of course, they had all the latest equipment, real purdy stuff. Lipstick on a pig, all of it. All that "neat stuff" means nothing if you can't put it to practice.

It's a perishable skill, but that skill must first be developed. I still shoot (almost) every week, and host my range for any LEO's who care to show up. If they don't have ammo, I provide it. They have no excuse to not be the best they can be. The "old farts" show up regularly. I nearly have to bribe most of the younger guys (they always have "better" things to do, and of course, they already know it all).

Then there's this:
http://gunssavelives.net/blog/video-marines-moving-towards-combat-pistol-training-program-instead-of-current-slow-fire-training/

Good? Bad?

[RkyMtn]

That's nothing!  Wait to see how much more that group opens up when the officer shoots under duress!

[Steve4102]

That's nothing!  Wait to see how much more that group opens up when the officer shoots under duress!

Shooting under stress and when the target shoots back is of course a real concern, but if the LEO can't hit sheet without the stress, then he/she/we might be better off it they do not carry one at all.

[cmemiss]

I ran a police qual. for a small town department about 32 years ago.  I was a fresh graduate of a Police Firearms Instructor course.  I threatened to take my Rem. 870 to the control point and point it at anyone who pointed a weapon at me.  Scores were all over the place and a few wouldn't have qualified had it not been for a brother officer tossing a few rounds cross-lane to help out on the score.  One of the worst shots (a sergeant) eventually became Chief of Department. 

One of the things I think you are overlooking in this thread is the move in metro. departments to train in "less than lethal."  The nightstick, Asp Baton, pepper spray and tazers sure beat the hell out of the paperwork that comes from a body.  The problem with all this is training time.  Tight budgets and lawsuits means that department managers have to try to find a balance between troops on the street and training.  No one is happy with whatever balance they find.

So far as the FBI training course, I'm not sure I could qualify as an agent, my parents were married, I can read without moving my lips, and I have a sense of humor.  It's hard for me to realize that in 35 years the gunfight is still at under 3 yards.  I wonder if it is still 2.7 rounds (which is what it was back in the day) so I usually carried a S&W mod. 60.  Training at 3, 5, and 7 yards may be useful, but at that range you could almost use a sword.  I understand the necessity for keeping CCH training close.  After all it isn't self defense if you tag someone at 50 yards, but for a LEO you might want to be proficient at the longer range in case you don't just happen to have a patrol rifle.

[hammer1]

My father was someone I wouldnt want shooting at me. He started at a small sheriffs dept in southern PA. They qual'ed quarterly, out to 50 yards. My old man would hit what he shot at with his registered magnum. I spoke with a young officer a few months back, wondering what they were issuing lately. He said he didnt know, he personally hated guns. The dept was reguired to qual once a year, no score, pass or fail. 60 rounds, I shoot more than that every weekend.

[MCQUADE]

We shoot 50 rds. Of .40 once a year for our recert. Scary. For many, this is the only time they fire a round the whole year. I won't even go there with the negligent discharges.

[enidpd804]

This all makes sense now.   

[s0nspark]

We shoot 50 rds. Of .40 once a year for our recert. Scary. For many, this is the only time they fire a round the whole year. I won't even go there with the negligent discharges.

I've come to expect nightmares around Halloween but usually they are related to scary movies ... o_O