Witness problems

[sqlbullet]

Run in the longer, heavier slide, don't in the shorter, lighter slide.

I am gonna guess your jams are all where the slide breech face misses the cartridge rim and rides up onto the cartridge body.  If that is the case I am going to guess slide velocity issue.

Couple of things.  I know you have mentioned, but what weight recoil spring are you running?  And have you put in one of the Hennings flat bottom firing pin stops?

I would suggest you get the firing pin stop asap, and if the recoil spring is below 22 lbs, order one from wolff.  And get + power mag springs too.

[Patriot]

Below 22 pounds, really? Standard is 14 pounds, I put a 22 pounder in a few years back. That was the heaviest they made for a witness back then. What do they make them in now? What do you recommend?  Its hard enough to pull the slide back at 22 pound. I couldn't imagine anything stronger.

[sqlbullet]

I run a 22 lb in mine.  And the + power mag springs.  When I tuned mine up Henning didn't sell the flat bottom firing pin stop so springs were the only option to slow down the slide.

It does take a powerful grip on those skinny cocking serrations to get it back.  22 is the max you can get.

[Intercooler]

I have the 22lb as well and it shoots it all well. Anyone with a Witness needs the flat bottom, 22lb and even the Henning cone guide rod. I'm happy with all those changes and the flat bottom virtually cured the crows foot strikes even with a dirty firing pin channel.

[mg5000]

What if you just run a Sprinco?

[sqlbullet]

The Springco system is essentially a really complex shock-buff that doesn't bear apart in your gun as it wears out.

While this may lessen the impact to the frame of the slide, it will have almost no effect on slide velocity as it only comes into play in the last 3/8"-1/2" of slide travel.  And it may reduce the total length of the slide travel, which would probably exacerbate this problem.

And it is 10X as expensive as a recoil spring from Wolff.

[mg5000]

I have already put in a 20lb recoil spring from wolff and the slide still cracked. If you run a Sprinco, can you run it in addition to a 20 or 22lb recoil spring??

[sqlbullet]

Recoil spring will not stop these slide crack situations.

They are the result of the pressures that occur on the slide during firing before the slide moves more than .100"-.150".  Specifically, the stress locking the breech.

The heavier recoil spring is to dump slide velocity so the action will not out-run the magazine springs.

[GoldBead]

No Problem!

Well, not "no Problem" but this one is an easy fix. Please note I carry a Witness match in 10mm and had these problems too, till they were fixed.

99% percent of the fix is the *&%#$@ factory magazine with the red follower. It is a third "fix" by the factory who simply are great at machining and LOST designing a magazine.  On the Bren Ten blog, I was to the point of ripping the magazine apart and building a new follower out of a Glock follower just so the red one would not stick in the tube!

The worst issue is that the (and the issue we are discussing here) is that the magazine tube angle is just shallow enough (and the tube long and wide enough close to the feed lips) so that the rim of the cartridge that is to be fed into the chamber can "hook" or "catch" in the extractor groove of the cartridge below it, either as it sits or as the slide slams into the cartridge to feed it. If it feeds after nosediving, by the time it gets up the ramp it jams with rim on slide, body on feedramp and bullet nose on the upper part of chamber.

If it gets smacked really hard by the slide because someone is using a 2400 lbs Chevy Impala spring to "fix" his gun, the cartridge below lets go of the rim of the cartridge above, but only after "straightening" it. The bullet either slams into the feedramp and stops (simple feed) or slams into the feedramp and porpoises into the bottom of the barrel hood, being literally sideways from where you want it to be, bending the feed lips of the mag.

Messing with the springs to "Make it work" is prayer at best, dangerous at worst. It needs a real "fix" which will never be done short of replacing you magazines. When Jamal and his gangbanger buddies decide to kick the life out of you while you are in the parking lot, that is a lousy time to have a jam. The Weapon (mine is a Match converted to double action) should work fine with all springs, but I would not use anything more than 18 pound recoil springs for the most part. Shock buffering is good (use 1911's) and Henning's guiderods.

Since the problem is inherent with the magazine, after years of complaints and different followers and springs, Tanfoglio turned the whole problem over to Mec-Gar and said, "Help". Mec-Gar correctly saw the problem, the stacking of the cartridges as the angle of the feedlips is different than the angle the cartridges "sink" in the magazine. So here is what they did:

1. Tube is a complete redesign.

A. Gone is the short angle stamps that do not control the nose of the cartridges.

B. Tube now has a flat front that keeps the cartridges in line ALL THE WAY DOWN the tube. Cartridges can not slip over each others rim because there simply is not room in the front/back movement for them to catch.

C. Tube now has rolled ridges all the way down the side to hold the cartridges off the tube body and more aligned. Friction is reduced and the cartridges slide easily up and down the sides.

D. Even with the cartridges straighter in the tube, the angle stamps start earlier so that by the time the cartridges get to the feedlips, they are one on top of another, like a single stack magazine.

E. Anti-friction coating. The Midway ad for these mags say "blued" but it is actually some sort of advanced Teflon.  I run my mags dry. Clean them, reassemble them, reload them and go.

2. Follower is a complete redesign

A. The factory "red" follower just plain sucked. It rattles, it sticks, it is too short in length for the magazine so it rocks around on top of the spring like a plate in the hand of a drunken waiter and the little "legs" catch on the spring, pinching, and bending and kinking the spring. The new one is a clean slate. It looks a lot like a follower from a Glock, with a hold in the center for the spring to be retained (so the follower is supported back, middle and front.

B. The follower has indents carved into it so that it rides the "rails" in the magazine body, preventing shifting and tilt.

C. The follower is made from a hard, slick composite like the Glock follower, so it is self lubricating

D. The follower has a ducktail in the back, like rifle or Glock followers, and only tilts a little as it moves down the tube so it will not "jam in the tube. Gone are the stupid legs, soft plastic and loose follower.

With my Witness, I shoot full power loads and it has been 6 months since a jam and that was with an old magazine before I destroyed them. Reloads, FMJ Federal, Remington target, Doubletap 165gr Zombie slayer loads. It just runs. It actually is boring. It just runs.

TANSTAFFL, the redesign only holds 14, but if you run a hennings basepad, 15 are there. DO NOT FORCE more in that will go with ease. When the mag is difficult to insert into the gun, it is because the sides are being forced outward by the follower. Be happy with 14 and don't stress a great piece of engineering just to jam ONE MORE IN! A full Mag should slide in and out of gun easily.

P.S. Please destroy your old crappy magazines. Run them over with you truck or whatever and rid the earth of them, they are death and unhappiness waiting to happen. DO NOT PUT IT UP FOR SALE ON TOP OF YOUR GUNSHOW TABLE.



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[Intercooler]

I have both reds and blacks and both work.

[pacapcop]

Your right on Bead.In process of getting my Match into D/A as well.I use a 18lb spring with the Henning Cone Rod.For carry purposes,D/A is where it's at.The Red followers are horrible.Some have had success, but for the most part,they FTF.My compact would be 100% if not for those red followers.And that is med loads.Im hopeing Mec-Gar produces those.

[sqlbullet]

Like intercooler, my reds all run 100%.  But only after I learned two things.  One, the needed for spring, and two, for some reason they like to be kept loaded.  I have six red-follower mags.  Anyone who doesn't like theirs and feels they need to run over, please PM me and I will be glad to give you an address where you can send them to have them "disposed" of.

That said, I won't carry a gun/mag/ammo combination that hasn't given me at least 200 rounds of jam free range time.

[pacapcop]

I think with fullsize mags there was some success obviously.However the new ones require no tweaking and springs are stronger and feed is great.You can see and feel the quality.GoldBead is right,esp in terms of carry.Im waiting for the compact mags.I emailed Mec-Gar,but i won't hold my breath.

[GoldBead]

Your right on Bead.In process of getting my Match into D/A as well.I use a 18lb spring with the Henning Cone Rod.For carry purposes,D/A is where it's at.The Red followers are horrible.Some have had success, but for the most part,they FTF.My compact would be 100% if not for those red followers.And that is med loads.Im hoping Mec-Gar produces those.

Hi PPC,

I don't know if Mec-Gar will do that, but it would make sense, as the compact has the fastest slide speed, the most violent recoil, the most torque over CG of any of the Witness pistols. It is a currently produced item and the engineering tweaks have been worked out, so why not? The tube is the only item that would have to be set up for, so they would have to make a stamping mold for it.  Once that is done the follower and other parts are right there.

Once those mags come out for the Compact, a Daisho of 10mm compacts would be really sweet (24 rounds!). I wish the factory would come out with aluminum frames, but I see why they don't, yet.

I did the DA myself and I will put an article I did on it up shortly. If you need help, let me know and I will. Hennings had videos of dis-assembly which are great, but once you have the interrupter installed on the hammer, the Sear housing requires a little love to get it to seat. Not force, just fidgeting.

I carry on hip and shoulder holster and I hate (HATE!) cocked and locked.

P.S. The enemy has an amusing habit of castrating themselves with Glocks....excellent!

[pacapcop]

Castrate away i say lol.Midway USA has a vast selection.I see the .40 cal now as "Coming Soon".Maybe the 10 compact is last on the list,i don't know.Im perparing to send down to EAA the Match for D/A.Somethings myself i prefere not to mess with.But thanks.I hate cock and locked myself,esp in a shoulder rig.