Swamp Fox ammo Pull-Downs 135gr, 175gr, 180gr & 200gr Others still Needed!

[Pinsnscrews]

I am wondering if he found he could get the loads he wanted best with Longshot...

My question is more of "what pressures was he getting out of these loads? Does a compressed load of Lonshot produce lower cartridge pressures by building more pressure as it expands down the barrel?

[The_Shadow]

All of SwampFox's ammo was compressed, some more than others. I was privileged to speak with Mike Willard on occasions via private messages  on Glock Talk.  By compressing loads you get more powder inside the limited space, thus the yield of total gas pressure is usually greater when ignited.  Some powders burn too fast and generate too much gas pressure too fast to use enough powder to compress.  Some powders burn too slow and you can't get enough powder inside the cartridge to develop enough pressure.  However too much pressure and bad things can and do happen.   

There is case expansion that fills the chamber fully, excessive expansion can cause the brass to over expand which can result in "SMILES", or even casing failure blowing it out, jetting high pressure gas down the breech and into the voids.  That can actually be violent enough to blow the magazine out of the well and bust the grips or frames of the gun.  This kind of event can cause injury to the shooter and or bystanders and the worst case scenarios the chamber fails and the barrel split. 

Primers can get flatten out, casing being held tightly to the breech the primer cup flows to the edges.  Primers can even be blown out of the primer pockets, usually what happens is the action is pushed open (semi auto) by the primer as the casing is held tightly to the chamber walls.

While I am posting these loads for documentations, I don't advocate just loading and shooting them as they are, without first working up from lower charge weights testing the performance in your workups.  You need to know your firearm and its limitations.  Not all components are equal and different lots are different and may act in an unexpected manner.

Some of the Data from the Quick Loads program, have shown extreme pressures to exceed the SAAMI MAP by quite a bit, yet many people were shooting these loads from their firearms.

All of that said, Hodgdon's LongShot is one of the powders that fit the profile of what fills the inside space fully to take advantage of it total potential...

[The_Shadow]

I am still trying to document the ammo as made by Mike Willard to preserve his load data, by doing pull-downs of the actual ammo if and when it can be found.  On the 10mmFirearms site you can see all of the pull-downs that have been documented. http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo-pull-downs/swamp-fox-ammo-pull-downs-needed!/
We have had a number of newer people to the site but many are not new to the 10mm guns and ammo.  So if you have ammo from SwampFox, I would greatly like to get a couple of rounds of each especially if we haven't done the documentation on that particular round.  If you are interested let me know which cartridges and bullet weight and velocity data (if known) that you have.
There are people who have donated a couple of rounds out right and some people that shared, actually wanted their cartridges back after I put them back together to their original loading specs with the original components.
So please consider this a preservation to the legacy of the 10mm and Mike Willard so all of us can learn from.

I appreciate if you are interested in this...contact me and we will make arrangements one way or another.
Best regards. Wade

[The_Shadow]

Cartridge is from Ammo Manufacture: Swamp Fox Nosler 135gr  JHP (supplied by Lethal10mm 5/13/2016)
Ballistics Information: 10mm Auto
Muzzle Velocity: 1700 fps
Muzzle Energy: 866 ft. lbs
Brass Make/Headstamp: STARLINE - Brass
Bullet Make/Weight/Construction/Info; Length 0.4890"/Dia. 0.4000": 135gr. Nosler JHP  HP depth 0.2110" / inside Dia. 0.1950" tapered inner Dia. 0.1220"  / mouth Dia. 0. 2635"
Actual weight 134.8 / 135.5 grains   Base flat / Crimp squeezed bullet to 0.3980"
C.O.A.L.: 1.2465" & 1.2480"
Primer: Large Pistol Nickel color
Case: Diameter 0.4215" Crimp Diameter 0.4210" (light) Length 0.9885"
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge LongShot Weight: 14.6 / 14.6 grains*
*(compressed)

[The_Shadow]

Cartridge is from Ammo Manufacture: Swamp Fox 200gr Hornady XTP (supplied by Lethal10mm  5/13/2016)
Ballistics Information: 10mm Auto
Muzzle Velocity: 1325 fps
Muzzle Energy: 779 ft. lbs
Brass Make/Headstamp: STARLINE - Brass
Bullet Make/Weight/Construction/Info; Length 0.6800"/Dia. 0.4000": 200gr Hornady XTP  HP depth 0.1620" / inside Dia. 0.1650" tapered / mouth Dia. 0.2200"
Actual weight 200.4 / 200.0 grains   Flat Base / Crimp squeezed bullet to 0.3995"
C.O.A.L.: 1.2525" & 1.2525"
Primer: Large Pistol Nickel color
Case: Diameter 0.4215" Crimp Diameter 0.4220" (light) Length 0.9890"
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge LongShot Weight: 10.2 & 10.2 grains*
*(compressed)

[Intercooler]

I guessed correctly 

[The_Shadow]

Man the Swamp Fox History has been a serious labor of love!  I would not have guessed the 135's would have been stuffed with 14.6 grains of LS.  However the double check on my two scales verified exactly the same for these latest two documentations! 

Now if we could only find some of Swamp Fox 155's or 165's...before they get shot up! 

Many thanks to Lethal10mm for these latest two pull downs in our quest to preserve the work Michael Willard did!

[Quick 2]

Underwood 135gr Sierra JHP loaded with 13.4grs of LongShot is 1600fps according to Factory Pull Downs. At that much powder 1.4grs more it would seems like it would have given more than 100fps. I have read the original proof load for the Bren Ten was 55,000 psi. So just like the 9mm SAAMI is 35,000 psi for the 9mm and +P+ at 42,350 psi and +p at 38,500 and proof for the 9mm 48,000psi looks like Swamp Fox was loading +p 10mm. I have loaded 180gr Armscor RNFMJ with 10.5 grs of LongShot with no ill effects to the brass primer was flattened but not pancaked just haven't got to chronograph them yet. Recoil wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be and that was out of my RIA Ultra 5" with the G10 grips and a 26lbs Wolfe recoil spring. Hodogon Manual gives 9.5grs of LongShot with a 180gr bullet at 1287fps and 34,600psi. Hodogon also gives 8.2grs of LongShot over a 200gr Hornaday FMJ going 1172fps at 35,000 psi but Underwood Ammo pull downs list 8.4grs and a 200gr Speer Unicor at 1250fps. So 2/10 of a grain gave a 78fps faster velocity and 1.4 grains on a 135gr bullet only gives 100fps faster. And Underwoods 220gr HC with 8.6grs of LongShot is going 1240fps. A 220 gr bullet in a 41 magnum with 10.1 grs of LongShot is only going 1300fps at 37,700psi and yes I know there is more capacity in a 41 mag case so the pressure is lower but what I am saying the 10mm is just as powerful with this load if the velocities are correct.

Here is the problem we have with the factory pull downs we just don't know what the pressures are on these loads. We can look at the brass and primers for pressure signs and go forward on your on risk. There is so many variables that can change the pressures of a cartridge to me it just isn't worth pushing the 10mm as far as some people do. And once again thanks for the info on these pull downs but for me I think this is enough velocity for me.  I think Swamp Fox proves these loads are safe in new brass.

[Deadguy]

Shadow, it's great to see you continuing to do these pull downs. 

[The_Shadow]

Here is the problem we have with the factory pull downs we just don't know what the pressures are on these loads. We can look at the brass and primers for pressure signs and go forward on your own risk. There is so many variables that can change the pressures of a cartridge to me it just isn't worth pushing the 10mm as far as some people do. And once again thanks for the info on these pull downs but for me I think this is enough velocity for me.  I think Swamp Fox proves these loads are safe in new brass.

I will tell you, I have now way to document pressure.  Swamp Fox mentioned he made his own pressure barrel testing rig he used.

From Mudrush 08-05-2011; I have a small machine shop and made a pressure measurement device using kistler transducers. You can do this for much less that $250k, more like $3-4k

Here is the thing with this statement, what was his chamber?  Was it a modified barrel or was it just a blank cut as chamber?  Where was his kistler transducer placed?  Did his rig adequately represent a actual test?  I never got to ask because Mike passed November 5, 2011.

SAAMI usually takes measurements in a particular place for the pressure test.  They usually have the transducer inside the chamber area.  His transducers were likely drilled into several locations along the fixture, because he mentioned this in a post 07-26-2011;

Using the silvertip bullet above as an example. I use a slower powder, one not optimized for a short barrel. If I look at it on a pressure barrel I can see it has not completely topped out at 4.6. My pressure barrel is 8 inches long.

This ammo is capable of 1350+ fps in a 4.6 barrel, but weel over 1400 in a 6 inch. The pressure rises to almost 37kpsi at teh 4.6 mark but is at 38kpsi+ at the 6 inch mark.

Whereas the Pressure Trace system transducers are wrapped on the outside of the barrel and need to be calibrated with known pressure loads.

So I take all of what I have read in communications from Michael Willard of Swamp Fox ammo into consideration.  Yes the ammo was extreme by its nature.  Many people used his ammo in their guns, some did experienced issues, heavy SMILES, even primers popped out and casing blowout.  Hence the WARNINGS on the ammo box FULLY SUPPORTED CHAMBER ONLY.

These documentations are here exactly as what was found, measured on my own equipment to depict what was bought as sold.  BTW, this ammo was not purchased by me, it was dedicated people who purchased the ammo and sent it to me.
In some instances people wanted their ammo returned, so I meticulously remake it and returned it to them.
Others who sent in ammo did not want it returned, so some gets forwarded to be tested over chronograph and/or even gel tested. 

[Quick 2]

Shadow I meant no disrespect whatsoever in my post. Swamp Fox had his on pressure rig and I have seen these built by people before and they aren't cheap and the knowledge of how they work and exactly how to set one up and if you are doing more than one caliber thats even more money. I have just always looked at the case and primer to know where a cartridge was at on pressure. Again You and the others on these Factory Pull Downs the data is very much appreciated. We have powders with data we can use that the powder companies won't give us. I would have liked to talked to Mike I think that was his name ( sorry I'm so bad with names I have to look at my drivers license to remember mine) to have been taught what he knew. I have talked to Kevin at Underwood several times but not in a while. The last time I talked with him we were on the phone for an hour and a half. I told him hey you have a business to run I'm going to let you go and he would say but let me tell you about this first. That is why when people ask me about what ammo I carry for SD I tell them Underwood and tell them why. Kevin still wants to connect with his customers. And it is for legal reasons I carry commercial loads. But having their recipe I trust my loading more than I do commercial. I still load on a single stage press pay strict attention to what and how I load.

I bought a 10mm about 2-3 years ago and another about 6 months ago Ever since the 10mm cartridge came out I have wanted one. But the guns dried up and components along with the guns. I have always reloaded my ammo and have shot some but not a lot of factory ammo. I have pushed a little beyond the data in manuals but I knew when to say ok thats enough. IMO none of the loads I see in the factory pull downs are unsafe in new or once fired brass and a firearm in good condition with a fully supported chamber. What does concern me is the people who have not been reloading very long and really don't understand what can change the pressures in a cartridge and see other people list there recipes and try them. I meant no disrespect to anyone and especially the data on the pull downs. They saved me a lot of money and time trying to figure out little by little what was safe and where the limits were. I'm a little on the conservative side and if I want more out of what I see a cartridge will safely do I will go to another cartridge or platform to achieve what I want. With the 10mm and the 220gr bullets doing the same as a 41 magnum and doing it safely and having that data provided by you and the others helps tremendously. All the dedication and hard work shows your passion for this cartridge. I'm happy with what I can do with the 10mm now. I would like to see more of Lehigh ammo pull down in all the calibers from Underwood and LeHigh. I ignored Lehigh out of ignorance not knowing they offered more than just the Extreme Penetrator. The Extreme Defender has really peaked my interest. I have a box of the Defender projectiles and plan on doing some testing of my on.

I'm not blowing smoke with the thanks for the pull down data. Having reloaded since I was 17 and I will be 54 this year I know all the work all of you have put into this. A LGS put a indoor shooting range in and the owner wanted me to do the ammo manufacturing but it had to be separate from the store. After checking on insurance and becoming bonded and the equipment I just couldn't afford the investment. Firearms and ammunition are my passion. You can keep all the sporting events even though I like Football and Baseball they pale in comparison to my love of Firearms. 4 years in the U.S. Army Infantry I was able learn a lot about full auto weapons and other platforms and how everything works. And I have worked on many firearms for people even making parts that you can no longer get.

If anything in my last post offended you or anyone else it wasn't meant to and I apologize. Apologizing  is something I don't do a lot of. I see it as a weakness, you should have thought about what you said or did before you do or say it so you do have to apologize. I never learned to type and I guess sometimes how I write things comes across wrong. I'm not making excuses I tell my kids one excuse is just as good as another so you might as well say you ran out of peanut butter. Now if it is a genuine explanation of why or how something happened or didn't get down that a totally different thing. I hope this clears up any miscommunication.

[The_Shadow]

Quick 2 writes:

Shadow I meant no disrespect whatsoever in my post.

Absolutely none taken, many people, including myself, have questioned what was used in some of these loadings documented here.  Quite frankly some of the found loads are hair raising!  There have been stipulations on many of the actual websites with regards to firearms not to use certain ammo, as loaded.  Also mention of recommended setups and recoil system mods for various performance ammo.  Plenty reference to chamber support by all of them and attention to Delta Elite and others because of the lack thereof.

My response was more geared to explanation based on actual info Mike Willard discussed on GlockTalk prior to his passing.  If Michael Willard were still alive, I'm quite sure he would be right here on this forum and discussing things with us personally.  He was known to be open and friendly.  I treasure the private messages he and I had and also miss his sharing of load data and test results good and bad.

Mike McNett of Double Tap sort of raised the bar for us 10mm guys back in early 2000 on some forum and started adding info to Glock talk in 2003 about his testing and various powders and bullets for 10mm and 9x25Dillon.  He made his business start as Double Tap Ammo and brought out the much needed real world 10mm ammo.

Kevin Underwood and his ammo has picked up slack right before Michael Willard's passing and the demise of Swamp Fox ammo as a result.  I often wonder if Kevin has viewed the pages of the pull-downs here?  While it could be viewed as spilled beans so to speak, it could also be looked at as an actual independent quality control look-N-see.

While these documentations take time, with the attention to get things right, and research, for looking at stuff that's out of the ordinary, making comparisons to data from yesteryear to present and even against other cartridge performance.

These new fangled lightweight projectiles, such as those from Liberty Defense and others, are somewhat out of the box for any normal loading data comparisons...

All that said, I truly enjoy doing these pull-downs documentations.  It has been a great learning experience even for me who has loaded ammo since 1978.   I probably should have opened my own ammo company way back then, instead I worked through a career as a Firefighter with advanced Haz-Mat, rescue and EMS with my department over the years. 

[Quick 2]

This forum is one of the best out there as far as I am concerned. I stay on the Factory Pull Down more than anywhere else and General Discussion every once in a while. Not interested in the Internet Ninja BS on soooooo many of the other sites. I have my training and I try to improve on as much as I can. With the Pull Downs I can load 50 rounds as cheap as 20. I have always had a 22lr trainer for any of my SD guns but now that I am casting and painting my on bullets I can shoot 9mm cheaper that 22lrs practice 10mm isn't much more. Last time I talked to Kevin at Underwood he was selling every round he made so I don't think the Pull Downs have affected his sales any.  Hindsight is 20/20 I wished I had bought all the AKs I could in the early 80s at $80 each and should them at the last scare. When you said you started reloading in 1978 it made me stop and think when I started. I thought I was 17 but I graduated High School in 1979 when I was 17 so it was 1976 I was in the 9th grade had bought a Ruger Blackhamk in 357 Magnum and used my brothers equipment to reload for it. Guess I can blame him for this 40 year addiction. Don't stop with the Pull Downs i have just about memorized the LongShot and 800X loads I look at them so much.