Blue Dot or W231 for Nosler 200gr JHP?

[TurboGeo]

WHAT A BEWBIE!!!!!!!!! I posted this in the wrong place!

Great forum guys, kind of nice to have a forum dedicated to 10mm.  I recently picked up a Glock G20sf Gen3 and all the components need for reloading ammo for it.  I plan on developing a load for deer hunting and possibly use it for small to medium size pig.

My reloading equipment and supplies;
Redding T-7 turret press
Dillon 10/40 (14398) dies
Nosler 200gr JHP projectile
Starline 10mm brass
Federal large pistol primer
Blue Dot or W321 powder

I was wondering if any of you have reloaded using the same components, any recommendations or experiences?   I am not sure what powder to use, I guess I could load using both and see what works best.  Thanks for the input.

[The_Shadow]

Seeing how this was 10mm reloading question I moved it here in the 10mm reloading section!
I suspect that you meant to write Winchester 231 as the other powder.W231 is a really fast burning powder especially using such a heavy bullet like the 200 JHP,(HP designs are longer in length than the FMJ styles even though they weigh the same.)  Why do I say this?  PRESSURE development vs. Velocity Yield.  Have a look at this data from Hodgdon's data center.  Study the pressure for the upper end loadings, the pressure tops out before the gets moving along...


I use plenty of Blue Dot for my 10mm loads, its pressures are lower with good velocities vs. the performance.  Powders similar are IMR800x, LongShot, AA#7, Power Pistol.  Powders like 2400, AA#9, H110/W296 are somewhat slower and work at even lower pressures than the afor mentioned powders.

Getting to know the powders takes some study of their use across the spectrum of various cartridges.  I hope you find this information useful!

[gofastman]

Out of those two, definitely Blue Dot.
Id start out around 8grs and slowly work up.

For 200gr jacketed bullets, Id really recommend Hodgdon Longshot
Id also like XTPs over Noslers, I think xtps are tougher and should certainly be a better choice for hog

Are you a complete newbie to reloading? do you know about blue dot's quirks?

[Deadeye74]

What are the blue dot quirks? I've used it to load 38 special without incident.

[TurboGeo]

Thanks Shadow for moving my thread to the correct location, thanks for the info.

Are you a complete newbie to reloading? do you know about blue dot's quirks?

I have been reloading for some time but new to 10mm.  The only Blue Dot quirks I have heard of are huge fire balls that can blind you at night and that its a very loud powder.  ...are there any others that I should know about? Thanks- Geo

[The_Shadow]

There were some cold weather warnings (using in sub zero temps) never heard anything ever since.
They advised against using the Blue Dot in all 41 magnum loads and no 125 grain loads in 357 magnum.  I can't tell you how many 357 Magnum's I have shot using Blue Dot, but it is one of the best 125 grain loads I used for many rounds of 357 shooting fun!

[gofastman]

Blue dot is inverse temp sensitive, pressure gets higher when the temp drops-sometimes by a lot.

It also gets "spikey" meaning when you reach a certain charge weigh, a very small increase causes a non linear jump in pressure.
I have also *read* that when you reach a certain point it can actually slightly drop pressure as charge increase, those two characteristics seem dichotomous but there are people out there with more reloading experience and knowledge than I that swear they are true.

I switched from BD to Power Pistol for my show-off loads.

[445 supermag]

Blue dot is inverse temp sensitive, pressure gets higher when the temp drops-sometimes by a lot.

I have a hard time wrapping my head around this one.   

I am used to 110 with my 445 supermag and when temp goes up so does the pressure spike.

But bluedot

Didnt know that. Thanks for the info

Brian

[Retired Squid]

I would not use slow powder like BD if carrying at night, you don't need 2 or 3 foot spout of flame out in front of you. 

Was looking around thru old ammo cans I have used for powder storage and found a unopened pound of 800X Monday, I'll use it with some plinking lead in my DW Razorback for making holes in paper.

[DM1906]

I think it's a myth, about using flashy powder at night.  I/we do frequent night shoots, especially during winter (days are too short), and have been in several high-stress shootings at night.  In every case I've experienced, and have discussed with others who have also, the flash from your muzzle is never an issue.  Actually, it's very helpful with identifying the environment in darkness.  It's like a camera flash.  I've never noticed any negative impacts from it.  No "night blindness" or "spots".  The 10mm is no more "flashy" than a .357 Magnum, and I've been doing that for nearly 40 years with it.  It sure has some shock value, if you're the bad guy(s).  You're body does amazing things to protect itself in a combat situation.  Blue Dot can also be louder than some other powders, but you won't hear it, either.

[Retired Squid]

I guess in civilian police shootouts things are somewhat different then having groups of people shooting back with full auto weapons. Military uses a powder with fast burn rates to help reduce muzzle flash and they also use flash suppressors, they do this to help reduce flash blinding (been there done that) and help in reducing accurate counter fire. 

And muzzle flash does greatly reduce you night vision temporally that's a fact of science, what does happen is image retention and the eye/brain fills in the blank area so to speak. We could get into more detail here, but it's not necessary. People will form their own opinions one way or another, and you or I will have little if anything to do with their opinion on the matter.

Blue Dot sucks as a revolver powder IMHO due to all the cylinder flash burn and leaves gun dirty as all get out, but there are other powders as bad and some maybe worse. I hated it in my S&W 610, after one usage I only used it in auto loaders. The BD seem to be about the best in my Witness but never verified it in my 1006 because I can't hit nothing with S&W 2nd and 3rd gen guns for some reason and I dearly loved my 1006 and 1086 but beyond 20 feet I be lucky to hit 4x8 sheet of plywood. 

[The_Shadow]

If your getting dirty burning from using Blue Dot, you may not be using enough to be in the proper pressure/heat for complete burns.  It has been a great powder for many of my cartridges over the years, I use it in 38spl, 357 mag, and 44 mag with great results using both jacketed and cast bullets.  There are some sweet spots where it will perform very well in most cartridges.  Also 10mm, 40S&W, 357Sig, 9x25Dillon, 45ACP, 9mm and a lot of 12ga shot shells.  It may be a little flashy, but it just works well for me!;)

While it may not produce the absolute highest velocities, it will be up there very close, usually using less powder in some instances and less peak pressure for the performance...   The powders very close in performance are IMR800X on the faster side and AA#7, LongShot but both slightly slower but not by much.

I like that Blue Dot occupies most of the case space (usually with a slight compress loading for mine), easy to identify, measures fairly well from the powder drop, therefore it continues to be one of my favorite powders!   

[Retired Squid]

Well to be honest all powders dirty up SS revolvers, but the BD was worse probably then most I had used till then. It's still a favorite of mine in 10mm 1911's as that's only center-fire for me that I shoot well besides Gen 3 Glock.

Speaking of compressed loads, #9 with 175gr Win STJHP reaches compression at about 12gr and max listed load in Lyman's is 13.9gr never shot #9 much with JHP bigger then 155gr bullet, mostly lead.

[DM1906]

Yeah, if your BD rounds are dirty, especially in a revolver, you're using the wrong powder for that round.  Blue Dot is at the fast end of the scale, as a Magnum handgun powder.  AA9, Longshot and H110, for example, are much slower powders, and flash a lot less.  AA9 is difficult to get a significant flash, in just about any load short of full power .44M or .454C with very short barrels.

If the military is using fast powders to reduce muzzle flash, they're doing it wrong, because it doesn't work.  If they're using "fast" powders, it's for other reasons, not the flash.  Otherwise, nearly every combat issue weapon wouldn't have or need a flash suppressor.  Suppressors don't reduce flash, they only diffuse the flash, the lumen-volume is the same, and only the linear indicator is suppressed.  Ever been on a battlefield at night during live fire?  You don't need a flashlight.  Issued military combat/infantry primary weapons are almost exclusively long guns.  All the military rifle ammo I've used, US and other countries, is about the flashiest of any ammo.  For comparison, US issue .30-06 vs. my handloads are night and day.  The military rounds are very flashy in just about any rifle, while mine vary, depending on the powder I use, with or without a flash suppressor.  With 180 gr. match bullets (Norma SMBT) and 60+ gr. R22, there's almost NO flash when fired from any of my rifles.  The same bullet with 47 gr. H335 is a flame thrower, much like the military rounds.  H335 is a LOT faster than R22.  With the same bullet, using R22 vs. H335 and similar faster powders costs about double, which probably plays a larger part with military contract ammo.  Shorten the barrels by 1/5 or more, use powders that are MUCH faster, and everything will be greatly exaggerated.  A full power load of W231 in a .357M will be nearly as flashy as a full power 10mm load with BD, although with a 25%+ difference of bullet energy.

That said, IMO, using W231 for Nosler 200 gr. JHP's is a waste.  Unless you have a bunch of these bullets, got them really cheap, and want (or are willing to settle for) the power of modest .40SW, it's just way short of ideal.  Target grade ammo, at best.  If you're concerned about flash, there are much better powder choices available that will allow you to retain much of the 10mm's potential.

[REDLINE]

Between the two, definitely the Blue Dot.  Like DM1906 talked about, W231 is pretty much useless for any respectable 10mm load whatsoever.

There was some talk about flash issues or not.  All I can add is that I've done some night time target shooting.  The flash never bothered me in the least.  No doubt it lit up the area around me, but never messed with my clarity of vision at all.  But, those were factory loads and I don't know what powder was used, which may not have been as flashy as a 10mm load could have been.  Still, I've done night target shooting with heavy 44 Magnum loads and it didn't bother me either (though they were shot through a 10" barreled revolver which would have helped lessen the flash even though the barrel to cylinder gap flash was still quite respectable).  Maybe it affects different peoples eyes differently.  I don't know.