More Problems with Split Cases

[Intercooler]

Here's my two... still have the pictures PBR Ammo .357 in once fired Nickel out of GP100:





I shared all this with Anthony. It was a hot reload and Anthony suspected just being Nickel. Tons of other ammo and HOT HOT without another failure.

My Armscor 180gr that was loaded about 1300 FPS at the time out of my Witness Match. Standard Armscor brass:




Never another out of this pistol as well and it's had some nasty stuff put through it!

[The_Shadow]

There have been many brass producers who have had issues at one time or another as has been shown.
Very typical of federal brass, the last batch at of used Federal Brass I purchased that was shot by FBI thru the MP-5 10mm's had several, they were said to have been picked thru.  But out of 1350 pieces 50 were split long ways on that initial firing.  One was not found till after I re-sized it and re-inspected it.  So yes it does happen, most times it is not an issue if it does.

Star-Line (Brass) brass is usually very soft by nature, it is sold as being a reloadable type brass.  Their (nickel plated) should not be having the splitting issues but it is possible they had something in their process that made them prone to the splitting on the initial firing as well.  Cleaning, forming, annealing, plating, polishing all of which could induce problems.

[REDLINE]

Redline, have you had any issue personally with any of the Underwood products? 

No, from the standpoint I won't fire them through my stock Glock barrel. 

I only know via reading post of two blown guns one in 10mm the other in 357Sig.

I never kept track to say how many their were total is there was actually more than one 10mm platform. 

Regardless, what I consider just as bad are case ruptures at the 6 o'clock position where the brass was to some extent unsupported.
Like here - http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=414533

Close after, what I consider almost as bad, and still unacceptable are primers falling out of the primer pockets after firing.  Your experience comes to mind, along with this one -
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=391251&highlight=Underwood
In that one the guy fired 23 UW 10mm rounds (135gr Nosler) and the primer fell out of every single one.

Are you aware that there are many guys who have pushed beyond even Underwood's loads for IMR800X.

What's your point?  Are you saying extreme smilies, primers falling out after firing, people's hands being bruised and burned, and at least one KB that we remember off the top of our heads is acceptable, all specifically regarding 10mm UW loads?  This, not even taking into account top end loads with varying powder charges that in my view and some others is outside the scope of being realistic.  This doesn't even include the chance there are other instances we simply aren't aware of.

Look, I'm all for people making up their own minds.  At this point I'm not sure any of us have entirely made up our mind one way or another yet.  I know I haven't.  By the same token I am going to err on the side of caution.  We're (I should probably say I'm) not talking about some single obscure incident.  There are numerous factors from various 10mm loads all from the same manufacturer showing everything from somewhat catastrophic signs to easily overpressure signs in some percentage of total production.  We are not seeing this from any other manufacturer, we never have for any amount of time in the rare instances were issues did raise their ugly heads being that in pretty much all past cases (Double Tap of the past comes to mind, along with the introduction of 357SIG when setback issues almost became a commonality) these types of overpressure issues were corrected promptly.

The original IMR data did show way more powder for some bullet weights than what is being used currently, but has since been revised.

Again, what's your point in the context of this discussion?  Yeah, it was revised.  Hornady has revised some of their 10mm data too and specifically says it's because they used to use the copper crusher system and have since switched to piezoelectric.  Regardless, how are you seeing it relating to the discussion at hand?  I just don't see the relevance.

What does this mean, anyone, any company, can have issues, be it quality control, components not up to spec or of different batch or lot consistencies.

So your point with some of the above you talked about was just making the point that negative issues can come from more than one place outside of the manufacturer's direct control?  I've discussed that below and see no relevance in relation to UW 10mm ammo with most of it, but do attribute UW's issues to having poor QC in the case of too much powder in some rounds that are already meant to be relatively hot loads to begin with.  Too much powder is too much powder and obviously has nothing to do with any make of brass, even if the brass is substandard.

I have no issues with the products that Underwood provides, but then I haven't bought any, but I have tested and evaluated what has been put in front of me.

And you had at least one major issue (unless primers falling out of a spent case is no big deal to you).  This, plus your sample sizes are not statistically very telling.  Certainly they are useful as another piece of a much larger puzzle.  I look at everything going on including your pull downs and mine and let judgment evolve from there.

Underwood as business has to be the one to re-evaluate or re-test samples to see if they conform to his own specs.  If he receives a batch of out of spec components then that's on him to adjust or return the items.  The sole responsibility is on his company.

I think we would all agree on that.

To some extent it seems to me we are on the same page.  I think we're just further away from each other in how we're deciphering what's in the data set and how we each choose to proceed from there.  To me it's not even a discussion we should need to be having at all.  But issues, regardless who's fault, do exist.  My simple wish would be that Kevin continues to put out a nice hot load compared to most other factory fodder out there, but with some control allowing for a consistency level that removes about 95% of the concerns floating around.  So far we haven't seen it.  Hopefully in the not too distant future we do.

[The_Shadow]

Redline, I am not trying to advise you or any one else, one way or the other about what ammo they decide to use.  We are learning from each other, good, bad or indifferent, hopefully not beating each other up in the process. 

What I am saying is there are many different guns in which people are utilizing UW, DT, Corbon, BB and their own handloads as well as a host of other types of ammo in.  If someone is having issues then they need to re-evaluate their guns' performance, the ammo's performance and seek information or contact the manufactures directly for answers.  What we are doing here is, applying our knowledge and observations as it pertains to what we learn.

I'm not trying to turn this into any personal attacks on anyone or  promote or deter anyone's' products...merely just observations and documentations and suggestions for to help others understand the information.

[4949shooter]

If certain manufacturers of ammo are producing loads that are not safe in certain guns, these manufacturers should specify so on the boxes for the ammo as well as their websites.

This gets back to prior posts. Most of the 10mm guns in existence were designed two decades ago for original Norma spec ammo. If newer manufacturers are producing ammo that is higher than the original pressures they should specify same. Again, are we tailoring the ammo to the existing guns, or do we have to tailor our guns to the newer ammo?

[REDLINE]

Redline, I am not trying to advise you or any one else, one way or the other about what ammo they decide to use.  We are learning from each other, good, bad or indifferent, hopefully not beating each other up in the process.

I never took it that you were. 

What I am saying is there are many different guns in which people are utilizing UW, DT, Corbon, BB and their own handloads as well as a host of other types of ammo in.  If someone is having issues then they need to re-evaluate their guns' performance, the ammo's performance and seek information or contact the manufactures directly for answers.  What we are doing here is, applying our knowledge and observations as it pertains to what we learn.

In my mind this discussion is and has been only in relation to UW ammo.  I don't know why you think we need to evaluate UW ammo's performance, as we have, and that's what this whole discussion directly entails. 

I don't need to evaluate my G20 or G29 performance.  I'm well aware what my G20 and G29 are generally capable of.  The issue is Kevin Underwood saying my guns (among others) are fine for his ammo which clearly is not necessarily true given the clear overpressure signs we've seen in numerous instances.

I'm not trying to turn this into any personal attacks on anyone or  promote or deter anyone's' products...merely just observations and documentations and suggestions for to help others understand the information.

I either, nor did I think you were.  Not sure where you're going with understanding the information.  We've been bringing it up for months now.  It's pretty clear UW has released some ammo from the factory loaded beyond maximum SAAMI specifications (I would guess easily +38,700 PSI).  On top of it it would seem there may be limited brass issues too.  Though I'm not willing to bet on that at this point.  It would seem you are, which is fine.



PS -  Sorry if I came across indelicately.  Only meant to throw out my thoughts as I have deciphered what I've seen.  To sum up our discussion I would simply say I'm more worried about what we've seen from UW than you are.  No biggie.

[REDLINE]

If certain manufacturers of ammo are producing loads that are not safe in certain guns, these manufacturers should specify so on the boxes for the ammo as well as their websites.

This gets back to prior posts. Most of the 10mm guns in existence were designed two decades ago for original Norma spec ammo. If newer manufacturers are producing ammo that is higher than the original pressures they should specify same. Again, are we tailoring the ammo to the existing guns, or do we have to tailor our guns to the newer ammo?

I couldn't agree more.

[pacapcop]

Same here. It's about as safe as one can shoot with desired results. All though nothing in firearms is full proof. Right now I like the Nugent load, U/W's 180's and 165's. Giving it further thought recently, lighter loads in 10mm ill stick with factory loads like Hornandy's 155.