More Problems with Split Cases

[Intercooler]

   PBR hasn't had brass in 10mm I agree. That does kind of stink but when it's there just order what you can.

[4949shooter]

  I don't have the answers to some of those questions. Doesn't help preaching to me about his 10mm ammo because I have conveyed info to him but I'm okay with anything he makes including stuff the public has never shot or will. I would ask him to come here for a question and answer session but feel it may turn into something ugly or a few wanting him to scale his stuff back more than already has been done. Some people really don't even shoot Underwood but still want it scaled back 
  That's the reason I think express your opinions, likes, dislikes, suggestions straight to Kevin and it will catch more traction. Show of hands who has phoned up Underwood Ammo?? When it does catch traction I'm a PBR fan hardcore until that needs changed too.

IC, I consider us friends so I know you won't take this the wrong way...

It isn't our jobs to phone Kevin with our likes and dislikes. It is his job to produce safe, quality ammo. You are the one that speaks to him and advocates for him on line, so naturally we are going to you with our concerns. If you didn't advocate for him constantly we wouldn't come to you. The topic comes up for discussion almost daily here.

If Kevin comes here for a Q&A session it really should not get ugly. He as a responsible business owner should be listening to his customer base and its feedback. If he is going to take this personal than this is bad for his business. We are really only trying to help.

As far as us who don't "shoot" Underwood ammo, well I don't know what you mean. I have personally ordered and shot at least 500 rounds of his ammo. I have experienced the good and the bad. No. I don't think I will be buying anymore until this gets sorted out, except for maybe the Delta Elite load if it ever comes back.

[Intercooler]

I'm just as much an advocate of PBR or any good 10mm ammo at a reasonable cost.  The other two decent ones myself and others can't afford to shoot in any quantity.  I pushed really hard for PBR to do their line if you remember. It's sad we really only have the two. Lose one and we all pay over $1 a round.

[sqlbullet]

He means me when he talks about not shooting Underwood.

I handload everything I shoot at this point, including my carry loads. (Yes, I know the risks.)

If I were to buy 10mm ammo, I would buy from Kevin.  And I am very interested in making sure that two things happen.  1.) Less knowledgeable shooters are able to safely appreviate and enjoy full power 10mm ammo at a reasonable price and 2. ) Kevin would be my first choice to succeed in making #1 happen.

[REDLINE]

Where to start...The thing is;  Kevin does not need to come here or any other forum and answer anything from anyone.  He already knows his 10mm Ammo has blown up guns, and maybe more of the negative issues (horrendous smilies in some cases that were on the verge of blowing up a lot more peoples guns).

The issue is not that it has happened.  The issue is that Kevin hasn't seemed to give a single thought too it, or cared, until possibly just recently (which the jury is still out on).

If Kevin knew/knows (and he did/does) his ammo has been creating issues mainly with Glock platforms, then why hasn't he AT LEAST put up a relating disclaimer aimed at Glock platforms, just like with the Colt Delta Elite?  I'm having a hard time coming to any conclusion other than he just doesn't care.

Do I want to give him the benefit of the doubt?  HECK YEAH!!!  I have pretty solid respect for any ammo manufacturer who doesn't lie about stuff like what bullet they are using, and what real world velocity the loads can be expected to achieve, and at a great price to boot (which has gone up and will probably continue to do so)!  The problem is the issues revolving around his ammo have existed for some time, didn't go away, and he has come across as if he could have cared less, being that he chose not to adjust/change anything for an awfully long time, if he even has yet, being that I'm not aware what his current line of changes is meant to solve.

As for comments about fear that Kevin is being pushed toward only offering something along the lines of 10mm Lite;  I have yet to hear anything from anyone suggesting that's what they want, or even remotely close to it.  I sure as heck don't!  In my mind there isn't anything wrong with his current line up of INTENDED loads.  The problem is somehow some Underwood 200gr XTP loads among others have left the factory with higher powder charges than were ever INTENDED.  It's because of this that I won't shoot any of Underwood's ammo through my stock Glock barrel(s). 

If Kevin would correct his overcharging issues there wouldn't be an issue.  But so far it doesn't seem he even cares.  Either way, nobody is in the hunt for 10mm Lite ammo.  By the same token nobody here is interested in a few 10mm rounds here and there (too many) that leave the factory above SAAMI specifications, let alone way above what Norma ever put out.  IE:  you don't  get a 200 XTP bumping 1300 FPS from less than a 5" barrel using 800-X powder while at the same time staying within SAAMI specifications.

Here's a way to look at it;  Pretend you are Kevin Underwood, all things being what they are and have been.  You somehow arrive at some recipes for 10mm Auto ammo.  You start selling it and some time afterward hear about major safety issues arise from a handful of your customers.  What do you do?  I'm guessing it would be more than nothing.  I'm guess you would have tackled the issue head on, and quickly to boot.  Yet Kevin didn't.  Why?  We don't know.  Is it ignorance?  Was he too busy?  I don't know.  The question in my mind is;  What else are we supposed to think?  What reason at this point do I have to come to any other conclusion?

I hope Kevin gets things sorted out.  I hope that one day we can look back at this and have a laugh.  So far it's not looking good.  And in the mean time some will choose to shoot Kevin's 10mm ammo, and some won't, or at least not through a stock Glock barrel.  An unsafe load practice is simply not worth taking the risk on in my view.  Think about those poor fellas pawning off their own handloads at gun shows that many of us would never take a chance on in terms of assuming their ammo is loaded within safe pressure levels.  Is their ammo probably fine?  Yes.  Have people had issues with some?  Yes.  And yet here we have a manufacturer that we KNOW has let ammo leave a commercial factory setting well over SAAMI specifications......and I'm not supposed to question it openly?!?  Because why?  Because screw safety for fear of 10mm Lite being the only outcome?  What?  That doesn't even make sense.

I sincerely hope the future proves Kevin eventually addressing all current known issues with his ammo that we never have need to question it again outside of true oddities that happen with all ammo manufacturers at one rare time or another.

Starline brass;  Is there an issue?  It SEEMS like it.  There is way too much unknown data to say for sure, or to what extent.  What we think we might know so far is based on so little information that it may just as well be considered coincidence, or, someone misinterpreted what they think but don't realize what really happened.  I AM NOT SAYING THERE ISN'T AN ISSUE WITH AT LEAST SOME 10mm Auto STARLINE BRASS.  I don't know.  I am saying we are at more of a hypothesis level than a theoretic level.  More info gathered over time will tell.

[The_Shadow]

Before I read Redline's post here I posted this on another topic in this section;

You know a lot of people are speculating that whatever issues where caused (need proof) "THAT IT IS THE AMMO'S FAULT!"

Let's take a step back and consider this;
What condition is that gun in? New?/Used?
Was it cleaned and lubricated properly? This needs to include the barrel and bore.
Has the person made any changes or mods?
Was it properly put back together?
Has the gun had any previous issues?

Just having a split casing is not much of an issue.  I have seen many brass split on the first firing.
Having a blow-out is a different story.  Things that come to mind are over pressure, weak/defective brass, early unlock or out of battery ignition.

What about a fouled barrel?  Some of the jacketed & plated bullets can leave copper fouling.  We all know that lead and lead alloy can leave fouling and build up.  If this fouling is allowed to build up and is not cleaned, someone running high impulse ammo through a barrel in this condition, will lead to even higher pressures as a bullet is being forced through this condition.  Barrel obstruction is a very serious condition, something like a squib being a worst case comes to mind.

I always clean & inspect my barrel and bore then apply a light coat of oil with a patch after every use.  Some avoid oiling like it was the plague.  I don't understand that theory as I think thin coat oil would lessen the fouling.

Now this is a very real situation that can and does lead to over pressure problems...
Ammo that is placed out in the direct sunlight can be absorb heat.
Ammo that is dropped where it falls on the bullet, can push the bullet deeper.
Dented cases can decrease space inside the casing.
As ammo is feeding in the gun, the bullet (if it is a loose fit) can also be set back deeper. 
Ammo that is chambered many times over and over may have bullet setback.
This can have dramatic affect if this happens.  Reports have shown it to raise pressures drastically and in some instances catastrophically.  Contrary to this setback issue is this article...https://plus.google.com/+luckygunner/posts/CiVxdHvWjYS

Here is the rub...

manufacturers of commercial ammunition wisely test and select powders that are not as susceptible to changes in temperature or, obviously, bullet setback.

However the gun manufactures using quality steels and processes design and make their guns/barrels to withstand very harsh and extreme conditions.  So we do have to consider all of the "What If Conditions"

[sqlbullet]

The article about bullet set-back is some good info.

Here is the thing I think we sometimes loose sight of.

KaBooms are often not caused by one condition.  They are confluence of conditions that make a perfect storm.  Hot ammo in a dirty bore with a tight chamber and some bullet set-back, for instance.  Or fouled chamber plus an over-charge plus a gun that will fire slightly out of battery.  Or a bullet set back + case head defect + hot gun + a couple minutes between chambering the round and firing which raised the temp of the primer and powder compounds.

Split case mouths only are an issue to the reloader.  They almost never result in damage to the gun, danger to the shooter, or a malfunction.  They are usually related to issues with the brass - an undetected quality defect.

If Underwood ammo was consistently defective to the point that it was patently unsafe, we would have lots more reports and occasionally much more serious issues.

But, since his ammo is, as we all agree, on the edge of what 10mm can be loaded to, it takes fewer conditions to align before you see a split case or a big smile.

I tend to fall on the "buyer beware" category here.  If you want pure plinking ammo, get a 9mm and buy white box at wal-mart.  If you have sought out a 10mm and tracked down Underwood Ammo, you gotta be kinda clueless NOT to have realized that this is at the limit ammo.

From what I have heard, Kevin has taken care of the few people who have had issues.  But, his business model is to provide economical high performance ammo.  I personally don't feel compelled to impeach him for not changing his business practice for a couple of incidents, given his business model.

But, this is only one mans opinion.  I completely respect others.

[Intercooler]

Very nice posts. I concur and have nothing to add.

[The_Shadow]

It is in my nature to look for answers and solutions rather than laying blame for faults! 
I have been known to work on issues with the "What If?" angles in my previous career!  It was part of being a safety officer and leader of a bunch of dedicated people, while we worked in a hazardous environment be it small or large Fire, EMS or Haz-Mat scene and some times all three together!

It is why I air on the side of safety!

I wish we were provided answers as it relates to some of the issues but it is unlikely!  

[REDLINE]

Before I read Redline's post here I posted this on another topic in this section;

You know a lot of people are speculating that whatever issues where caused (need proof) "THAT IT IS THE AMMO'S FAULT!"
Here is the rub...

manufacturers of commercial ammunition wisely test and select powders that are not as susceptible to changes in temperature or, obviously, bullet setback.

However the gun manufactures using quality steels and processes design and make their guns/barrels to withstand very harsh and extreme conditions.  So we do have to consider all of the "What If Conditions"

Specifically toward Underwood's 10mm ammo (not Starline brass) -

200 grain XTP bullets bumping 1300 FPS from less than a 5" barrel using 800-X and a 135gr Nosler bullet load that had the highest 800-X charge weight we saw between multiple pull-downs of the same load had the primer fall out after firing and horrendous smilies noted by numerous others, all equal one thing;  It was the ammo's fault.

So even when not taking into account guns that blew up, among many of the other possibilities you mentioned, we have clear signs from multiple shooter's platforms and from pull-downs of ammo before it was ever subsequently fired that it is the ammo's fault.  Then add in the guns that did blow up and/or were left with a permanent malfunction (something broken/tweaked) and I don't see any other way to look at it than that it was the ammo's fault.

When the 1st one or two issues ever came to light I was still waiting to seem more data come to light too as you very eloquently laid out.  In my mind I've seen enough to make/pass judgement.  And again, my judgment is that overall it is the ammo's fault.  That's not to say in a couple or so occasions other points you brought up didn't enhance some of what we've seen.  But in my mind we're beyond anything else outside the ammo itself being the major culprit.

As for bullet set-back;  in terms of 200gr XTP loads, I say no way within the context of what we know as a whole.  In terms of 165gr Golden Saber loads showing horrendous smilies after being fired through Glock platforms, I say maybe, but probably not.

Again, this isn't about bashing Underwood.  It's only about the facts given the info we know.

[REDLINE]

If Underwood ammo was consistently defective to the point that it was patently unsafe, we would have lots more reports and occasionally much more serious issues.

But, since his ammo is, as we all agree, on the edge of what 10mm can be loaded to, it takes fewer conditions to align before you see a split case or a big smile.

I tend to fall on the "buyer beware" category here.  If you want pure plinking ammo, get a 9mm and buy white box at wal-mart.  If you have sought out a 10mm and tracked down Underwood Ammo, you gotta be kinda clueless NOT to have realized that this is at the limit ammo.

From what I have heard, Kevin has taken care of the few people who have had issues.  But, his business model is to provide economical high performance ammo.  I personally don't feel compelled to impeach him for not changing his business practice for a couple of incidents, given his business model.

But, this is only one mans opinion.  I completely respect others.

I think there's another aspect to keep in mind.  That is that what we know comes from a limited source.  Namely internet forums.  Most shooters are not on internet forums.  There could well be more to this story out there than we realize.  In my mind it would be ignorant to think otherwise, given the amount we know just from a relatively small group.

Another thing is that some people will simply not come forward with issues they've had personal experience with for various reasons, even if they are forum (whatever forum) members.

Lastly (that I can think of) many shooters just don't pay the attention needed to know if they were shooting ammo that showed high pressure signs.  And most shooters (10mm in this case) don't load their own ammo, working up their own loads, which generally equates to not knowing what they would look for as they don't know there may be something to look for.  Most simply don't give thought to factory ammo.  They buy it, shoot it, leave the brass lay where ever it landed, and go home without giving anything a second thought UNLESS their gun started to majorly malfunction or blew up, and even then they don't have a clue what to look for or why.  They would probably call Underwood via the phone number on the website, and none of us would be any the wiser.

Don't get me wrong.  My intention is not to blow anything out of proportion.  I simply feel we've seen enough in our little world, that outside our little world it's hard to imagine we've seen it all.  Sure would be interesting to see Underwood's monthly sales figures from when he first made the 10mm Ammo available till now.

[The_Shadow]

Redline, have you had any issue personally with any of the Underwood products?    I only know via reading post of two blown guns one in 10mm the other in 357Sig.
Are you aware that there are many guys who have pushed beyond even Underwood's loads for IMR800X.
The original IMR data did show way more powder for some bullet weights than what is being used currently, but has since been revised.

What does this mean, anyone, any company, can have issues, be it quality control, components not up to spec or of different batch or lot consistencies.

I have no issues with the products that Underwood provides, but then I haven't bought any, but I have tested and evaluated what has been put in front of me.

Underwood as business has to be the one to re-evaluate or re-test samples to see if they conform to his own specs.  If he receives a batch of out of spec components then that's on him to adjust or return the items.  The sole responsibility is on his company.

[Intercooler]

  To date I have only had three uh-ohs to label them that. One was Remington Golden Bullet in my 22A that  blew the end of the case out the side. Hit a nerve for a moment due to powder to the glasses and slight powder burn to the hand. They ended up sending a full refund and soon after started making the new and improved Golden Bullets. I have some now and shoot them again with no issues but at that time plenty of reports of failed Golden Bullets.
   I had two Armscor brass case split out of a 50 pack and the last was a PBR .357 Magnum in reloaded Nickel that split the case in my GP100.

     None of my firearms were ever damaged.
   

[d762nato]

I'm not a reloader at this point in my life, but I'm curious if its mainly the nickel cased cartridges being split or also brass cases. I've also got some older Underwood DE loaded rounds and they are brass cased but I noticed the newer full power Underwood loads are nickel. I wonder why Underwood would go this route and not brass for the full power loads and nickel for the under powered 10's.

[Intercooler]

Here's my two... still have the pictures PBR Ammo .357 in once fired Nickel out of GP100:





I shared all this with Anthony. It was a hot reload and Anthony suspected just being Nickel. Tons of other ammo and HOT HOT without another failure.

My Armscor 180gr that was loaded about 1300 FPS at the time out of my Witness Match. Standard Armscor brass:




Never another out of this pistol as well and it's had some nasty stuff put through it!