More Problems with Split Cases

[4949shooter]

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=20348330#post20348330

[Intercooler]

Did you tell them a forum member here experienced it with reduced loads? It's a Starline issue as it turns out.

[REDLINE]

I just wonder if the Starline issue is here to stay.  Either way we don't know what pressure level Underwood's loads are being loaded to regardless he claims 37,000 PSI for everything, and since there's been clear evidence some rounds are leaving the factory overcharged, the emphasis on Starline may be to some extent exaggerated.

[Intercooler]

  To the best of my knowledge their has never been a case split (talking new brass) in Starline across the board by all MFG's in standard brass. If you know of when let us know. I also don't know of anyone else loading 10mm in Nickel brass except Remington which is their own Nickel brass.

[REDLINE]

Double Tap has loaded in nickel plated brass.  Don't know if they still do.

You may be right that we have no instances of standard Starline brass splitting within the context of this conversation.  I'm not 100% sure, but can't find anything to suggest otherwise at the moment.

[4949shooter]

Did you tell them a forum member here experienced it with reduced loads? It's a Starline issue as it turns out.

No I must have missed that.

The fact is, Kevin's ammo is still having issues for whatever reason that he needs to address. You shouldn't take it personal when these issues are brought out in the open. Let's get the problems taken care of so people will have safe ammo to shoot.

[Intercooler]

I don't take anything personal.  A solution has been offered and info conveyed.  I struggle with the why. If I had some issue with an ammo of anyone's (not just Underwoods) I contact them. At that point the options are presented and I go with what makes me be okay with the outcome. Then maybe I don't use the product after that. Seems Starline is totally getting off the hook without even a phone call or email instead of Kevin taking the brunt of what isn't his issue to solve. No doubt he should be putting Starline on blast but he doesn't make the failing brass.

[4949shooter]

I don't take anything personal.

Cool. 

Though I think there are other issues coming into play with Kevin's ammo besides the brass. This has been suggested here by a few. Whether he is providing us with over pressure rounds or the quality control is suffering, something doesn't seem to be right.

The Glock 10mm pistol has been around since 1990 or so. I know you say Kevin's ammo runs fine in your guns, and you point to the other platforms as the issue. But he 10mm Glock has been around for decades longer than Underwood Ammo has. My point is, Kevin should be tailoring his ammo to the existing 10mm guns, and it shouldn't be the other way around.

Don't forget, in the early days the Colt Delta Elite pretty much saved the 10mm cartridge from sinking. The Glock 20 kept the 10mm sailing. If it weren't for these two manufacturer's guns we might not have a 10mm today.

[Intercooler]

I agree but disagree. I think he is making some subtle changes but for my own uses don't want to see his ammo become a 10mm lite loading. I think we have enough of those out there already! I have pushed some of the makers hard to make their ammo more like the originals. Their are countless rounds in all calibers that have been ran without issue but we do hear of a few here and there. Expecting a company to change their core to fit a few sometimes don't work either. Who knows what he might do later but since I never had issue 1 don't change mine.

[pacapcop]

He sold out his last offering of 135's.Shooters appear to continue to enjoy his product and I grabbed 2 for myself. Everyone's preference various but I believe their are those and myself included really interested in not only safety but what the original load was intended to be. If someone wishes to shoot outside the 180 1300 or 200 1200 level,free will. By sticking to Norma Spec or close,it's a win win for all.

[4949shooter]

I agree but disagree. I think he is making some subtle changes but for my own uses don't want to see his ammo become a 10mm lite loading. I think we have enough of those out there already! I have pushed some of the makers hard to make their ammo more like the originals. Their are countless rounds in all calibers that have been ran without issue but we do hear of a few here and there. Expecting a company to change their core to fit a few sometimes don't work either. Who knows what he might do later but since I never had issue 1 don't change mine.

Nobody said anything about 10mm lite. Here's the thing...some of Kevin's loads approach and perhaps even exceed the old Swampfox "Nuclear" level loads. But Mike Willard specified these loads as for use with an after market barrel (close to full chamber support) and increased power recoil springs only. These loads were listed as such on his website. Kevin doesn't make such recommendations, and some of his ammo is just as hot. Then, you throw in some quality control issues and you have what we have been seeing...split cases and kabooms. It isn't the guns it is the ammo. Like I said, the Glock was around decades before Kevin's ammo.

If you don't want to listen to me, listen to what Pacapcop is telling you. We don't suggest 10mm lite we suggest standard Norma level loads. These are what the guns were designed for. Listen to Redline, Sqlbullet, and the Shadow. They are all telling you at least some of Kevin's loads are over pressure. How can all these knowledgeable 10mm shooters and loaders be wrong?

Let me say, I am not trying to trash Underwood Ammo. If I were I would be putting this out on Glocktalk where there is a larger reader base. This site is still a smaller, more closed community. I feel I can speak my mind here without hurting anyone's business. I do want Kevin to succeed, but if you are someone he confides in you aren't helping him by not listening to what has been said here by some smart shooters.

[chucky2]

Speaking as someone who has never reloaded, and has extremely limited experience with pistols, I really like what Underwood offers.  If I want 10mm loaded to .40 S&W levels, I have any number of common off the shelf loads available.  I don't want to pay DoubleTap prices, nor support a company, regardless of what they did for 10mm in the past, who is at this point intentionally lying about their FPS numbers (either change the FPS on the website/box, or load them to do what you say they do).  That leaves Underwood for hot 10mm...unless there's another manufacturer I've missed.

What I would like to see, if Underwood is not able to take steps to get these rounds out safely, is for them to offer a somewhat reduced loading to cover for the misloads...say a 135gr at 1500 instead of 1600, and then another 135gr offering that is marketed at - max - loading 1600 with a disclaimer that due to the max loading nature and manufacturing tolerances, this is a 'Likely you'll be fine but shoot at your own risk' loading.  Let the customer decide:  Safe but hot loaded 10mm, or, Probably safe but ragged edge (for automated loaded) 10mm.

I think those that are shooting 10mm will be able to understand and appreciate the difference.

EDIT:  Let me add:  I bought some .45 +P for my good friend and my cousin.  While it's only 50 rounds to each of them, I worry a little if it's the same deal.  With me I research before I buy and I understand the risks/odds.  With them they and their wife/girlfriend are going to head out to the range and blow that ammo off in their XD's.  I'd feel pretty sh1tty if someone got hurt.  If there was a .45 +P 'safe' load and .45 +P nuke load, I'd have got the 'safe' load instead for them.  I know this isn't 10mm and I have no idea if Underwood .45 +P has ever had a problem, just thought I'd throw that out there...

Chuck

[sqlbullet]

HEre is a curious question, that is somewhat off topic.....

IC, do you know if Kevin has a random sample of production ammo tested for pressure, or does he send "prep" loads...eg loads he carefully assembles by hand to ensure they are loaded on his spec for powder, bullet weight, COAL, etc?

I would hope he is just using random production samples.

[Intercooler]

  I don't have the answers to some of those questions. Doesn't help preaching to me about his 10mm ammo because I have conveyed info to him but I'm okay with anything he makes including stuff the public has never shot or will. I would ask him to come here for a question and answer session but feel it may turn into something ugly or a few wanting him to scale his stuff back more than already has been done. Some people really don't even shoot Underwood but still want it scaled back 
  That's the reason I think express your opinions, likes, dislikes, suggestions straight to Kevin and it will catch more traction. Show of hands who has phoned up Underwood Ammo?? When it does catch traction I'm a PBR fan hardcore until that needs changed too.

[RRMan03]

My problem with PBR is they never have a 10mm in stock so they might as well sell 22lr's. Ihave now shot about 5000 of Kevins all nuclear poer loads from a glock with not one thing done to the gun.Factory everything. I have had maybe 50 smiles out of 5000 rds so I either got a great gun or I do not have ammo problems. most of my shooting id 155Gr HP and in solids 165 grains. I have aslo thrown in for testing 180 GDHP 180solids and even 100 220gr HC all these in a G20 that I would not sell to anybody period and I have a lot of Glocks.I am now lookiing for a really nuclear load for my new Ruger 10mm because it can take a lot more than an auto.