Who Shoots Lead

[DM1906]

If you are casting, don't ever turn down lead.  Ever.  You'll use it, or know someone who can (put me on the list).  If you can't store it, find someone who can.  It doesn't spoil.  It's getting harder to come by.  The reasons don't matter, the fact it, it is.  If you have a ton, you don't have enough (and you'll be amazed how fast you can use a ton).  Running out really sucks, as I found out some time ago.  I'm back in the supply, and got the pigs a-rolling again.  Less convenient, as I'm recycling range trap lead (messy, dirty, and a lot of work).  I cast about 500-2000 rounds a week (and shoot up that many), and went through the tons I had a lot sooner than I would have ever thought.

If you're just getting into casting, get a store of lead (hundred(s of) pounds) while you're gathering up the equipment.  You can't start with 20 pounds......you'll run out when you just get into a rhythm (which is as important as any aspect of the process).  Take your time and don't be concerned with recycling your duds.  Oh, and watch out for water.  Water, in any form, is not your friend.  Don't let so much as a bead of sweat drip from the bill of your hat into your pot!  Dry your lead before introducing it into the pot, and go sloooooooow.  Flux often as necessary or anytime you add lead, and use whatever is at hand.  Commercial flux, paraffin, toothpicks, any dry organic material (it's the carbon you're after).  A lot of us here have been doing it for a long time, so don't squander that resource.  Our opinions may differ with methods, but the fundamentals and basics are the same, so take advice for what it is.  Treat your equipment right and take care of it, and it'll last a long time.  [ramble off]

[The_Shadow]

Well I've added another mold to my 10mm line up...The RCBS 200 TC SWCwith belvel base, Midway had it on clearance and RCBS had a rebate so I jumped on that. 

[sqlbullet]

Beautiful.  I would love that mold if it had four more cavities.

[The_Shadow]

Yes 4 cavities would be great, however two is still not as tough as working with the HP single cavity molds!  Now I need a cooler day to cast some up!  :'(

[REDLINE]

Glad to hear another who has discovered that harder isn't always (usually isn't) better. 

If you don't mind, I'ld be curious to hear more about "harder" usually not being better.

Also, for a cast 170-180 grain and an expected velocity of 1300fps at a minimum, what Brinell hardness would you suggest?

[The_Shadow]

Most of what I cast is either straight wheel weight (air cooled) or for the rifles I add a little lineotype with gas checks.
I don't even hve a hardnes tester...Proper fit and good lube has been working well with these in my guns.
The last 357 mag I shot...Lyman 358429 Keith Style SWC
Powder-Power Pistol 7.6grs  CCI 500 SP
COAL 1.620"  Velocity 1222 fps from 6" S&W mod 19

[sqlbullet]

If you don't mind, I'ld be curious to hear more about "harder" usually not being better.

Also, for a cast 170-180 grain and an expected velocity of 1300fps at a minimum, what Brinell hardness would you suggest?

Shadow mentioned it.  Fit.  FIT. FIT.

Most shooters who have leading issues, probably 90-95%, it is becuase they haven't slugged the barrel and found cast bullets a that are .001" to .002" over actual groove diameter.  And they are running hard bullets that won't obturate (elastic deformation) and fill the last .001" to fit the bore.  They get hot gas (plasma) blowby, which liquifies the lead and boom, terrible leading.

The remainder have odd ball issues.  Revolvers with tight cylinder throats and large bores or tight lead and loose bore.  Or a crimp die that is aggressive (Lee Factory Crimp) or out of adjustment.  These scenarios take a bullet that may start the right size, and make it smaller before it gets to the rifling.

Finally, velocity.  It really doesn't matter, except as an indicator of pressure.  You need to keep the peak pressure below the plastic deformation limit for the hardness of the alloy you are using.  I can push softer alloys like air cooled WW far faster in a rifle barrel than in a pistol, becuase I don't need the same peak pressure when I have an additional 22" of barrel I can accelerate the bullet.

I run all my cast bullets harder than needed for my applications.  I shoot most auto-loaders.  CZ clones, 1911's, M1 Garands, CETME (G3 Clone).  For the rough ride the bullet nose gets making it to the chamber I like a bullet with a BHN of about 22-24.  I cast from isotope lead + and additional 1% tin.  Water dropped from the mold these test after 1 week about 26-28 and after 1 year about 22-24.  Usually I will cast a bunch up and then use them for several years.  The 175 SWC I am loading now I probably cast 2-3 years ago. Water dropping also means I don't burn my fingers when I decide I have to look at one right now!  They do have to be dried well before lubing.

I have run this alloy air-cooled in all my 10mm loads.  Air cooled it is about 11-12 BHN.

I had leading a little when I first started casting.  I hadn't slugged my guns (see paragraph 2).  The loads that were below max would lead, just a little.  Those at max didn't.  At max I was developing enough pressure to reach elastic deformation, which sealed the bore.  Below max, I wasn't and I got leading. 

I finally slugged the two Witnesses. Both were about .4005"  My bullets were sized to .401", only .0005".  Honed out the sizing die to .402" and leading went away.

For more reading, check out threads at the cast boolits forum and the [urlhttp://www.lasc.us/castbulletnotes.htm]LASC cast bullets section[/url].  Probably in reverse order (lasc first).

More than anything, after you read up as LASC, listen to your gun.  Better in general to start to soft, make sure you have fit, and increase hardness than the other way.  Just like some guns won't shoot tight groups with jacketed bullets no matter what, some guns just don't like lead.  I haven't encountered one yet, but have read of guys who have.  I kinda suspect my son's Mosin won't.  The bore looks terrible, but it shoots mil-surplus ammo fine.

Good luck, and keep asking questions and sharing what you find!

[The_Shadow]

Well due to the cloud cover although still hot and humid, I just had to cast a few of the RCBS 10mm 200gr, Turncated Cone Semi Wad Cutter, Belvel Base bullets fro the new mould.  Weights ranged from 207.4 to 209.2 grains with wheel weight alloy.
The adverage and most were 208.2 grains...Bullet length is 0.7135", this is longer than the Hornady 200XTP which is 0.680".

Now these are headed for the STAR sizer/lubricator and then the press for loading! 

[REDLINE]

If you don't mind, I'ld be curious to hear more about "harder" usually not being better.

Also, for a cast 170-180 grain and an expected velocity of 1300fps at a minimum, what Brinell hardness would you suggest?

Shadow mentioned it.  Fit.  FIT. FIT.

Most shooters who have leading issues, probably 90-95%, it is becuase they haven't slugged the barrel and found cast bullets a that are .001" to .002" over actual groove diameter.  And they are running hard bullets that won't obturate (elastic deformation) and fill the last .001" to fit the bore.  They get hot gas (plasma) blowby, which liquifies the lead and boom, terrible leading.

The remainder have odd ball issues.  Revolvers with tight cylinder throats and large bores or tight lead and loose bore.  Or a crimp die that is aggressive (Lee Factory Crimp) or out of adjustment.  These scenarios take a bullet that may start the right size, and make it smaller before it gets to the rifling.

Finally, velocity.  It really doesn't matter, except as an indicator of pressure.  You need to keep the peak pressure below the plastic deformation limit for the hardness of the alloy you are using.  I can push softer alloys like air cooled WW far faster in a rifle barrel than in a pistol, becuase I don't need the same peak pressure when I have an additional 22" of barrel I can accelerate the bullet.

I run all my cast bullets harder than needed for my applications.  I shoot most auto-loaders.  CZ clones, 1911's, M1 Garands, CETME (G3 Clone).  For the rough ride the bullet nose gets making it to the chamber I like a bullet with a BHN of about 22-24.  I cast from isotope lead + and additional 1% tin.  Water dropped from the mold these test after 1 week about 26-28 and after 1 year about 22-24.  Usually I will cast a bunch up and then use them for several years.  The 175 SWC I am loading now I probably cast 2-3 years ago. Water dropping also means I don't burn my fingers when I decide I have to look at one right now!  They do have to be dried well before lubing.

I have run this alloy air-cooled in all my 10mm loads.  Air cooled it is about 11-12 BHN.

I had leading a little when I first started casting.  I hadn't slugged my guns (see paragraph 2).  The loads that were below max would lead, just a little.  Those at max didn't.  At max I was developing enough pressure to reach elastic deformation, which sealed the bore.  Below max, I wasn't and I got leading. 

I finally slugged the two Witnesses. Both were about .4005"  My bullets were sized to .401", only .0005".  Honed out the sizing die to .402" and leading went away.

For more reading, check out threads at the cast boolits forum and the [urlhttp://www.lasc.us/castbulletnotes.htm]LASC cast bullets section[/url].  Probably in reverse order (lasc first).

More than anything, after you read up as LASC, listen to your gun.  Better in general to start to soft, make sure you have fit, and increase hardness than the other way.  Just like some guns won't shoot tight groups with jacketed bullets no matter what, some guns just don't like lead.  I haven't encountered one yet, but have read of guys who have.  I kinda suspect my son's Mosin won't.  The bore looks terrible, but it shoots mil-surplus ammo fine.

Good luck, and keep asking questions and sharing what you find!

Thanks.  That really helps put why/why-not and if/when to go with greater or lesser hardness into perspective.

[sqlbullet]

My pleasure.  But remember, you heard it on the internet for free. And my wife reminds me all the time I am full of BS.

[REDLINE]

My pleasure.  But remember, you heard it on the internet for free. And my wife reminds me all the time I am full of BS.

I'll keep that in mind.

On a side thought, I know it has been said lead and the human body don't play well together.  So, not that I think anyone casting bullets is drinking lead like koolaid, but is their much to worry about in the way of health risks, or is that easily overcome?  No big deal at all, or a PITA? 

[DM1906]

My pleasure.  But remember, you heard it on the internet for free. And my wife reminds me all the time I am full of BS.

I'll keep that in mind.

On a side thought, I know it has been said lead and the human body don't play well together.  So, not that I think anyone casting bullets is drinking lead like koolaid, but is their much to worry about in the way of health risks, or is that easily overcome?  No big deal at all, or a PITA?

Lead is dangerous, and can be lethal (I'm sure you've heard of lead poisoning), but not just because of the lead.  When casting, we are dealing with relatively low temps, only slightly above melting temp, about 700

[sqlbullet]

There are health concerns if the lead gets into your system.  It stays and builds up over time.

But lead doesn't get into out bodies easily, and lead oxide is what is readily absorbed.  This is why paint is so bad.  It doesn't have elemental lead, it has oxidized lead.  Worse, kids eat paint chips and adults sand it off.  Eating and inhaling lead oxide are quick ways to get big doses.

For casting there are really simple rules that will keep you save.  Don't eat, drink or smoke while dealing with lead - casting, loading and shooting.  Wash your hands good as soon as you are done. Have good ventilation where casting.

Many of the guys over at the cast boolits forum get tested.  It is just a check box on the form when they do the rest of your blood workups.  Those that are high usually trace it back not to casting but to shooting inside with poor ventilation, or breathing the dust that comes from tumbler media.  Older primers depended heavily on lead azide and tumbling brass with spent primers put lots of lead dust in the tumbling media.  Then when separating media and brass it gets inhaled.  Only one or two traced high lead back to casting, and then they had hygiene issues, eg eating, drinking or (usually) smoking while casting or loading lead bullets.

I do where a respirator mask when I am refining scrap lead into ingots (called smelting but isn't really).  The scrap lead has paint, oils, dirt and other crud on it that generates a lot of smoke while it burns off.  This is done in a dutch oven on a turkey fryer outside.  But smoke follows beauty so I am always downwind it seems 

When casting I don't where the mask, but I keep two doors open in my garage so I have a cross breeze.

And, finally, water and melted lead don't mix.  Results in a visit from the tinsel fairy.  And you don't have to have water present.  On a humid day just putting a piece of room temp lead in a hot pot can be bad news because microscopic amounts or water condense on the surface of the cold lead and then get carried under the surface of the melt.  There is a big bang and 700

[loadedround]

I shoot lead also and my bullet of choice is the Laser Cast 180 gr TC wadcutter. Never had it lead up my Delta Elite with reasonable loads.

[The_Shadow]

I only work outside while smelting, fluxing and cleaning making ingots.

I also cast outside under my porch, but with the ingots being clean there is not much to worry about.