hot loaded 45-70

[JBS27572]

I wonder why no one has produced a lever action 45-70 that can handle the Ruger #1 high pressure loadings.  I initially thought it must be that lever actions were just too weak of an action to withstand the 40,000 CUP pressures but then I saw Marlin 450 pressures that actually exceed that a little and that is a lever gun.  If Marlin can produce lever action 450 Marlin rifles, they could easily produce their lever 45-70 rifles to the same proofing.  I wonder why they don't.

Honestly, it is the only reason I haven't bought a 45-70 lever brush gun.  I want the full potential of the round and currently, only single shot rifles or some bolt guns built on 98 Mauser actions can handle the pressures.  Lever guns have always appealed to me but I think I would go with a 444 or 450 Marlin over the 45-70.

[The_Shadow]

Keeping the traditional reproductions true to form is possibly the biggest reason...
Maintaining weight & size

[38_Super]

Just curious what are you considering hot loaded 45-70 cartridges?

Buffalo Bore advertises 45-70 "Magnum" cartridges and state to use only in Ruger #1,#3 also Marlin 1895 and Marlin 1895 guide gun made after 1972 which I have a Guide Gun in 45-70.

[JBS27572]

I was referring to the Lyman manual loadings for 45-70.  They have three levels of loading:  One for the old trapdoors and such below 20,000 psi; one for Marlin 1895 Lever guns loaded to less than 28000 psi and finally one loaded to 40,000 psi for Ruger #1 and #3.  They mention bolt guns
with Mauser 98 actions as guns that can handle the hottest loading as well.

[JBS27572]

Just curious what are you considering hot loaded 45-70 cartridges?

Buffalo Bore advertises 45-70 "Magnum" cartridges and state to use only in Ruger #1,#3 also Marlin 1895 and Marlin 1895 guide gun made after 1972 which I have a Guide Gun in 45-70.

Are you saying that the Marlin 1895 lever actions made after 1972 can also handle the 40,000 psi loadings?

[DDRiller]

Most people find a hot 45-70 very painful due to recoil.

[fltbed]

Hello JBS27572.  I think you getting confused by what I call the numbers game.  Let me give you a little history on the hot loaded 45/70's.

Back in the 1900's, Siam (now Thailand) contracted with Japan to produce 98 Mausers in an obscure 8X50Rmm (later 8X52mm Rimmed) cartridge.  Decades later, these rifles were imported into the US however, ammo didn't exist anymore.  American gunsmiths figured they could rebore or re-barrel these old rifles to 45/70 fairly easily.  They also figured out the Mauser action was much stronger than the old Trap Door Springfield and the first rifles capable of hot 45/70 loads were born.  Many old loading manuals had separate load data for the "45/70 Siamese" with max pressures set at 50,000 C.U.P.   
Later, Ruger came out with the No. 1 single shot and it also falls into this power category.   

In the 1970's Marlin came out with the 1895.  An updated and enlarged version of their 336 chambered in 45/70.  Marlin engineers knew their new creation was also stronger than the old Trap Door but none of the big three ammo companies would offer a hot loaded 45/70 for new rifle due to liability concerns.  Marlin teamed up with Remington and came up with a longer 44 magnum and the 444 Marlin was born.  However, handloaders noticed the 444 was loaded up to 40,000 C.U.P. and quickly started developing load data for the 45/70 also loaded up to the 1895 's 40,000 C.U.P. limit.  By the 1980's many reloading manuals now had three tires of load data.  The popularity of the 45/70 took off like never before and the 444 Marlin faded away to history.  Today, Marlin, T/C Contenders and the newer Henry's all share this same power level and can safely shoot what is now known as 45/70 +P.

In 2000 Marlin came out with the 450 Marlin and finally we had a factory cartridge that matched the power level handloaders have been enjoying in the 1895 Marlin for over 30 years.  However, also about this time several smaller ammo companies started loading the 45/70 +P Just for the Marlin and Henry's and the popularity grew even more.  IMO, It's due to factory ammo selection.  With 450 Marlin theirs two, maybe three choices all loaded up to max.  With 45/70, just about all the ammo companies offer something and at three power levels.  Cowboy loads, (an absolute joy to plink with) Standard pressure, (still nothing to scoff at but a little light for Africa) and the +P loads from Garret, Underwood, etc. These loads have been used successfully in Africa and I would not feel the least bit under gunned facing a Cape Buffalo with an 1895 Guide Gun stoked with some 430 gr. hard cast +P ammo.

A side note on "max power" 45/70 loads. 
While it's true the old Siamese Mauser and the Ruger Number One are very strong actions capable of 50,000 psi ammo, In the 45/70 you don't really gain much above the 40K Marlin loads due to powder capacity.  All the "Marlin only" 45/70 ammo I ever made had compressed powder charges.   The only real advantage these rifles have is the ability to use the 500-510gr bullets originally made for the 458 Win Mag.

So, IMO, if you thinking about one of the new 1895's or Henry Big Boy's I'd say go for it.

Jeff

[JBS27572]

Thanks for the history.  Why does the Lyman reloading manual still warn against using the Ruger #1 loadings for Marlin 1895 guns?  Also the website for Marlin/Ruger says not to use +P loadings in new model 1895 guns (rather "it is not recommended").  Is this just a CYA on their part?

[fltbed]

Thanks for the history.  Why does the Lyman reloading manual still warn against using the Ruger #1 loadings for Marlin 1895 guns?

For the same two reasons that no reloading manual recommends using Siamese / No. 1 45/70 data in the lever actions.  As I said above.

1. The pressure limits for the converted Mausers and the Ruger was set long ago at 50K C.U.P.  The pressure Limitations for the Marlin (and later the Contender and Henry) were set in the 1970's at 40K C.U.P.

2.  Much of the data developed for the No. 1 & Siamese Mauser use bullets designed for the 458 magnums and because of their shape and length, will not cycle through a Marlin or Henry lever action.

I also find the whole C.U.P. and the more modern PSI systems confusing.  40,000 C.U.P. is not the same as 40,000 PSI and there is no mathematical formula to convert one to the other.  It's just a weird gun thing like Dram equivalent or gauge.  Older cartridges use C.U.P. and modern ones use PSI.

<<<  Also the website for Marlin/Ruger says not to use +P loadings in new model 1895 guns (rather "it is not recommended").  Is this just a CYA on their part?>>>

I looked through the Marlin manual (both old on and the new one on line) and the new Marlin web site and only saw the standard warnings about not using reloads or hard pointy bullets in a tube magazine.  However I can believe the +P warning because +P just means Plus Pressure.   There is no SAAMI spec for 45/70 +P so I can also see this as a CYA thing.

Jeff

[38_Super]

Just curious what are you considering hot loaded 45-70 cartridges?

Buffalo Bore advertises 45-70 "Magnum" cartridges and state to use only in Ruger #1,#3 also Marlin 1895 and Marlin 1895 guide gun made after 1972 which I have a Guide Gun in 45-70.

Are you saying that the Marlin 1895 lever actions made after 1972 can also handle the 40,000 psi loadings?

I'm just repeating what is on the Buffalo Bore site for all to read.
I can say my handloads that duplicated close to Buffalo Bore site "Magnum" loads were not pleasant to shoot in range session.  One or two shots in the field would be tolerable.

[38_Super]

Most people find a hot 45-70 very painful due to recoil.

I'll agree with that in my Marlin 1895.

[JBS27572]

Thanks again.  That pretty much answers my question.

BTW, the statement in the model 1895 manual is on page 18 around the middle of the page.

"AMMUNITION
Marlin? rifles are chambered for factory-loaded cartridges manufactured in
accordance with U.S. industry practice. The particular caliber for each rifle is
marked on the barrel. Use only factory ammunition in good condition that
exactly matches the caliber of your rifle as designated on the barrel. We do
not recommend the use of +P ammunition."

[sqlbullet]

Great info on the 45/70.

Regarding the CUP v transducer PSI issue, I think the confusion comes from the fact they measure two different things.

CUP is a measure of how much work is done by pressure during the firing cycle.  That works is how much the copper cup deforms from start to finish of the firing cycle.

Transducer PSI gives discrete pressure data at the various points during the firing cycle. It is typically plotted on a graph so you can look at any time index during the firing cycle and see what the pressure was at that point.  However, for the purposes of communicating a cartridges pressure, we generally cite the highest pressure recorded, regardless of where in the cycle.

Considering this pressure graph:



A simple analogy of CUP to PSI would be that PSI is the single peak on the graph, while CPU would be the area under the graph. (Yes, this is not strictly accurate, but for illustrating the point it is close enough.)

In fact, I would bet that with the transducer graph and details about the cartrdige and projectile tested, the CUP could probably be calculated from the complete transducer trace.  But you can't go the other way because a given amount of work could be achieved by many different versions of the trace, all with different peak pressure.

Comparing it to water, if I give an engineer a graph of water pressure over time and tell him the pipe diameter he can give me a pretty accurate estimate of how much water came out of the pipe.  But, if I give him a five gallon bucket of water, he has no idea what water pressure was in the hose when it was filled.

[Alaska]

In my Marlin 1895 in 45-70

350gr Speer FN
IMR 4198 @ 48.0
WW or Starline Brass
WLR primer

Used this load for years here in Alaska for Bear protection in Guide Gun.