Lehigh Defense gel test; Fluted vs Non-Fluted

[Kenk]

Pretty interesting comparison - Lehigh Defense compares their Xtreme Defense 90gr 9mm Bullet with and without Flutes.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?_kx=2mEmt2V1Nf6dqIGOq169uTv7yaFCjh5HbUjB5cYA3Yo%3D.UsWKxq&v=8a6dA26FnMs&feature=youtu.be

[sqlbullet]

So...I have two 11mm copper rods on the shelf behind my desk.  I bought them a couple years ago cause I wanted to run this exact test.  I wanted to know if I built a solid identical to the XtremeDefense minus the flutes what it would do.

I am on the fence still about Lehigh Defense bullets.  But I think the physics of what they are doing is not really well understood my consumers of defensive ammo.

There are two basic ways to reduce the energy the bullet has:  Heat stuff up or tear stuff up.  When considering defensive applications, we really want to do damage to whomever if assailing us (tear them up).

Energy is expended when a hollow point bullet expands. That is energy that is NOT available to incapacitate your assailant.

When this bullet hits the gel with 425ft-lbs of energy and stops in 18" without deforming that may be a game changer.  The question becomes where did all the energy actually go.  I see four options:  Deformation of the gel, heating the gel, heating the bullet and possibly but unlikely temporary deformation of the bullet.

I think it would be very interesting to full instrument a gel block and measure radial force along it's length, temperature change of the gel and temperature change of the bullet and to validate the temporary change in the bullet is minimal.

If the energy is just heating up the copper, not much more useful, and maybe less useful than expanding a hollowpoint, though a solid copper 6 gram bullet would be very hot.  Similarly, if we are heating the gel, it would be a noticable, but not useful change.  A 10 kg block of gel would heat by about 20?C, though obviously the heat would be localized to the wound channel.

Clearly the energy is being put into all four of these things.  The gel changes shape, the gel heats up, the bullet probably changes shape (though maybe not measurably) and the bullet heats up.  Isolating and measuring the temperature change of the gel/bullet would allow us to calculate how much energy went into changing the gel shape, which is what we really want to do.

[Kenk]

Like you said ?When this bullet hits the gel with 425ft-lbs of energy and stops in 18" without deforming that may be a game changer? For a 90gr copper projectile to dump that much energy that quickly, and then come to rest after only 18?, it?s got to be creating a heck of a damage path. It just doesn?t seem possible that it wouldn?t

[sqlbullet]

Other questions I still have...In addition to the shape of the flutes and the metplat, is there an energy or velocity floor to get this performance?

9mm has good "traditional" bullet options.  This tech changes the game for 380, or even more for 32 ACP.  If a 35-45 grain 32 acp bullet making around 250-300 ft-lbs of energy can dump all that energy into tissue damage while still making 15-16" of damage it suddenly becomes much more viable as a defense round.

[gunfan]

The Lehigh "Extreme Defender" changes the .32 ACP into a viable self-defense cartridge. In my single-action, 3.8" barreled, Zastava M70 European Police "turn in" the modern hot-rock cartridge will handily dispatch a human with two or three rounds fired.

I wouldn't hesitate to carry the all-steel pistol. By golly, it is fast, accurate, and will get the job done!

[sqlbullet]

I was watching a Wilson Combat youtube video yesterday where Bill Wilson and Ken Hackathorn were discussing their EDC.

I learned two things that make me more impressed.  First, the 9mm 90 grain Xtreme Defense is Bill Wilson's carry load.  Second, Bill was so impressed by the technology that Wilson Combat bought Lehigh Defense.

Maybe everyone else already knew this, but it was news to me.

[Kenk]

Considering Mr Wilson could carry anything he wants, that?s saying a lot

[Kenk]

I picked up several boxes of Underwood?s 90gr +P Defender pre-pandemic, but haven?t done any reliability testing. I will say, it?s a fascinating bullet design

[Ramjet]

This bullet design is the real deal. Fluid that?s what tissue is mostly comprised of add in bone of course. I was out bird hunting with my little English Cocker she alerted to something by  log I went around the log and there was huge raccoon hissing at her. I called her off and that big ole raccoon comes out ready to fight. One shot with 10mm XD and game over. That varmint was double the size of that little dog. I have also taken deer with that bullet in a 45 Colt loaded to 1000 FPS it takes care business. I am not surprised with these results at all.

[Kenk]

Thanks, Underwood has them on sale today only, coupon code 10OFF at checkout

[Txmoose]

Don?t forget that little pill is spinning around 60k rpm. Which I suspect with the flutes is the major mechanism creating the larger wound cavity and avoiding over penetration

Think of it as the difference between getting stabbed by an ice pick vs a powered egg beater

[Reddog81]

Is there any evidence out there to suggest the bullet behaves the same way in a body vs a gel block.   Creating ammo that optimizes performance in a gel block will sell ammo, but is it really the best?   

Assume you're shooting out of a gun with a 1 : 18 twist rate.   How many rotations will that fluted bullet make in 18 inches? 

[AlinMi]

1 turn every 18" or whatever your twist is. High RPM sounds impressive but reality is it will only turn with the twist and thickess of target.

I have the 45cal 225gr version to try from the 45 Raptor on some deer next month. Will report back with damage done.

[Kenk]

Lehigh Defense came out with another video on their Controlled Chaos bullet, pretty impressive results
https://m.youtube.com/watch?_kx=2mEmt2V1Nf6dqIGOq169uTv7yaFCjh5HbUjB5cYA3Yo%3D.UsWKxq&v=WUFfe2oNx1c&feature=youtu.be