Finally found some blue dot

[Kenk]

Evening John, have you considered anything  like this?

https://lehighdefense.com/400-caliber-140-grain-xtreme-penetrator-lead-free-bullets-100-count.html

[John A.]

I have heard of them, but know little about them.

I have some that I was given to beta test for the 9x39 caliber, but as far as I know, those never came to fruition in the market unfortunately.

I know that they also have some for the 300blk and probably a bunch of other calibers.

But, I don't really know a whole lot about them, or what one could expect from them.

Edit to add:

Many years ago when I was a young teenager, my great uncle showed me how to carve an exposed bullet into a cross shape, very similar to the design of them.

I recall him telling me that back during WW2, they and the Brit's would often carve shapes onto the rounds because they were forbidden to use more effective loads in their guns against the nazi's, and they called them dum dums.

I'm not sure if that is what the extreme penetrators inspiration came from or not, but that does come to mind.

[Kenk]

John, if you want guaranteed pass through, the Lehigh Defense extreme penetrator is just the ticket 😀

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WDvzul3rvTk

[John A.]

That was genuinely impressive.  I wasn't expecting that.

[fltbed]

Thank you very much for the reply fltbed. 

I don't necessarily have to push a bullet as hard as I can for me to like it either.  Though, I'm trying to get a complete pass through at the distances that I hunt because I lost a deer year before last because even though while it was a good hit, it was able to run much further than I would have ever suspected, crossed the property line into the state animal reserve, so my goal is to avoid that happening again if at all possible.

I'm sure I'm not the only guy that has ever lost a deer, but it still about made me sick because I'm not a wasteful type and had I known how it would've played out, I never would've even went that morning and I do not like not being able to find it and it losing its' life being wasted.

One of the reasons I think it made it as far as it did is that I only found about 4 drops of blood while tracking it in a place where it stopped for a minute.  So, I think the entrance wound sealed up.  And with no exit, means it leaked out in its' chest cavity.  I have no doubt that it died soon after from the way it was acting.  But, as I said, I'm just trying to squeeze all that I can out of whichever load that I narrow down the closer to season opening.

I hear you John.  The only time I lost a deer was with a JHP pistol bullet in a lever action rifle.  (although it was taken by the folks on the farm about a mile away)

Now, I will preface this by saying I have ZERO experience deer hunting with the 10mm.  (here in PA. we're not allowed to use autoloading pistols or rifles) 
However, I do have around three decades of hunting with revolvers Contenders and lever action PCC's in 357, 44 & 45 Colt.  From my experience, velocity has a little to do with penetration while bullet construction is almost everything.  JHP bullets designed to expand at pistol velocities tend to expand violently, like a varmint bullet, when pushed an extra 300-400 fps from a rifle.   We got the best performance from cast lead Kieth and LBT bullets.  (turns out old Elmer Kieth was right about those big meplat bullets after all)

Since we don't have rifle velocity to take advantage of that hydro-static shock, we need to rely on blood lost and as we all know, blood leaks out faster from two holes than one.  Wide meplat cast bullets tend to cut a clean hole through deer like using a drill.  It's hard to tell the entrance hole from the exit.

Now, not all jacketed bullets were useless in the PCC's & contenders.  Hornady use to make an excellent .357 180 gr flat point with two cannelures. (I think it was made for the 357 Maximum)  Sierra made a 44 cal 300 gr flat point that held together pretty well and Speer made a 45 cal 260 gr flat point that worked marvelous in my old 94 Trapper.  But they were the exceptions.

Velocity does affect penetration but not like you expect.  I ran some testing back in the early 2000's and was getting more penetration in my Flackler box from my 45 Colt using 280 gr LBT bullets at 950 fps versus 1200 fps.  A friend of my sons, who was going to engineering school, tried to explain to me the physics behind why.  After his 10 minute lecture, I told him, Yep...You hit the nail on the head.

So don't be overlooking those old school cast bullets.  They will get the job done.

Jeff

[John A.]

Everything you have said has coincided with what I have observed as well.

And the one I lost, was with one of Lehighs' max expansion bullets.  I recovered one in a 5 gallon bucket of water, and in my opinion, it opened up properly, but just lacked the deep penetration that I was hoping for.  As I said, I'm sure the deer died.  But, not until after it had well crossed the property line and beyond where I am allowed to track it.

Here's a picture of the bullet that I recovered from the water bucket prior to hunting with it when I was testing them out. 

This is sitting on a quarter for size reference.  Looked real promising huh?  I thought so.



Now I know a lot more.  Expansion certainly slows the velocity and reduces the expansion.  So, having something not expand as quickly would help for penetration depth.

I do have some hard cast 175 gr bullets that I picked up.  A semi wadcutter.  Though, I'm not sure whether my gun will feed them or not?  Those were actually the bullets that I was most excited about to try with hunting because I think they would be the most likely to get a pass through.  And I also bought a 175 gr lee truncated cone nose bullet that I can pour and powder coat too.

The comment that you made about expansion is spot on with my experiences too.

On another hunt, I was using a 6.8 scp caliber.  It was the first year that the hornady SST bullets were available.  They were supposed to be a bonded bullet.

I shot the buck, he collapsed where he stood.  So, I can't argue with the result.  DRT (dead right there).  He anchored where he stood.  Only time I've ever seen that in person.  It's heart was slush when I opened him up to field dress him.

But, even though that was only about 45 yards away, and probably 2400 fps, despite that it was supposed to be a bonded bullet, it failed to exit.  I found a handful of fragments just underneath of the hide on the exit side.  The biggest piece recovered was the jacket that had peeled off.  The rest was BB sized fragmentation.

That deer had no blood whatsoever that came out of the entrance wound.  Like the other experience that I mentioned, the entrance wound sealed up almost immediately.  Though, I do realize that some of the explanation from the lack of blood was due to the fact the heart wasn't pumping once the bullet impacted, so I chalked that up to that.

But, I'll say that my crossbow bolts/arrows do pass through quite readily.  And I'm going to be quite honest about it.  There would be no possible way to miss the bloodtrail from it.  It's very apparent and unmistakable.

I'm not meaning to be offensive, and I realize there are many people out there that thinks meat comes from the grocery store.  I grew up helping slaughter and skin and prepare our own food, so pics like the one I'm going to add below is just a fact of life. But, if you look around in the photo, you can't miss it.  Here's your NSFW advance notice.  If it bothers anyone to see blood or a legally harvested deer, just exit off the post I guess.



It made maybe 4 steps and that was it.

Entrance and exit hole both,  is what my goal is.

And for that exact reason.

I'm not wanting it to be cruel or whatever as some may would think.  Quite the contrary, it's because I don't want to be cruel and cause undue suffering.

fltbed, 357's are a staple in the woods where I hunt.  As I have mentioned, 30, 35 yards, that's typical distances for harvesting deer here. 357 do quiet well.

[Graybeard]

Those Lehigh maximum expansion bullets really do have limited penetration. They certainly look like they would make a pretty good mess for the amount they do penetrate.

Most of the deer I've taken in the last decade were with Remington 180gr ballistic tip ammo in .300win mag. With similar shot placement I've only had one DRT and that was at 312yds. The ones shot at between 85 and 150yds all ran for 30-40yds. The heart and lungs were nearly liquified in all of them. Sometimes they run and don't even know they're dead. Don't beat yourself up.

Since you have a concern with deer crossing boundaries where they can't be retrieved, I understand your desire to have them go down quickly. Perhaps a good compromise bullet would be the 180gr XTP? They're pretty tough bullets for being non bonded. They don't expand as much as some others and seem to penetrate quite well. They should be tough enough to break a shoulder and keep going. Choosing a bullet that performs at the greatly varying velocities between 25yds and 100yds seems to be the key.

[John A.]

Thanks graybeard.

Not gonna lie though, I know that it may happen, but I hold myself to a higher level.

The deer crossed over into a state animal preserve.  One of the largest state owned properties in my state.

Our property just happens to border it.

I may could have crossed over and continued tracking and maybe retrieve it.

Then again, the state tends to patrol the area very well during deer season.  And if I had gotten caught, I would've likely been charged with poaching, my gun taken, court and all the other pleasantries from the state to protect the kings deer.

So, I stopped at the barb wire fence.

I circled all around the upper end of the property, and even came home and got my dog to help me track to make sure that it was there and the dog ended up within a few feet of where I tracked it to the property line, but it wasn't there on our side.

I'm considering using a hard cast 175 for the first shot.  I think it will have the most likelihood to get a pass through and an XTP if I need or get the chance for a followup shot.

That seems like a logical approach.

[Graybeard]

I have those same standards. Fortunately, the only deer I ever lost was actually stolen!

As much as I love the 10mms, I will suggest this. My close up deer gun is a Henry Big Boy Steel in .44mag. Usually with 240gr semi jacketed soft points. It?s really accurate at 100yd. This could be an excuse, err valid reason, to buy another gun?..

[John A.]

In fairness, I have a 357 single shot with 16" barrel.  My wife took over the 357 model 66 with 6 inch barrel that I used to carry in a shoulder holster up there.

I didn't think I could convince my wife that I needed to buy a new gun, but I'll tell them graybeard said I did.  It might just work if I play my cards right.


I'll let you know how it works out later.

[John A.]

OK.  I'm back.  I asked the wife.

She said if Graybeard thought I needed a 44 magnum lever action, she said that you should get me one.

So, now she's put the ball back into your court.

Just kidding.

She just said "have you lost your ever lovin' mind again?  Just take the mossberg and a handful of slugs"

I guess that means no.

[Kenk]

Hey John,
Sounds very familiar, in my experience with the 180 and 200gr XTP?s on whitetail, they hit hard, but don?t expand like say a Gold Dot would, thus achieving the best of both worlds. Your getting the needed penetration, and also some expansion. The two I?ve taken with Underwood?s 180 and 200gr XTP were not pass throughs, but they busted up everything in their way, and didn?t go far.

[John A.]

Perfect info.

Do you have any idea what the velocity and approximate distance was?

Thanks Kenk.

[Kenk]

The one with this 200gr XTP was aprx 20 yards out

* BALLISTICS INFORMATION
* Ballistic Coefficient (G1) : 0.200
* Muzzle Energy (ft. lbs) : 694
* Muzzle Velocity (fps) : 1,250
* Sectional Density : 0.180

https://www.underwoodammo.com/10mm-auto-200-grain-xtp-jacketed-hollow-point.html

[Kenk]

Plus, their delivery time is incredible, usually to my door in 3 days, or you could just get some XTP?s  and roll your own 😀