Finally found some blue dot

[John A.]

I was finally able to find a pound of blue dot powder, and after hearing so many positives from the folks here, I ordered it.

I'm not really sure how it compares to the #9 powder that I've been using, but I'm hoping to get some decent speeds out of it with 155, 175 cast/powder coat and 180 pills for deer hunting.

Will be shooting these out of my 16" barreled carbine and hope to be able to find a bullet combination that it likes.

Since this is the first time I've used blue dot I'm not exactly what I should expect out of it.  But, if it doesn't work out so good with the 10mm, maybe it'll do OK with 357 or shotgun loads I guess.  I load for them too.

[Kenk]

Hey John, I haven?t pushed BD very hard yet, but have loaded a ton of them for range work. For accuracy, it seems like 10.4gr under a 180gr XTP or HAP is the magic number. Other than that, it makes for some impressive fire balls (very flashy) I read a few years back that BD is temperature sensitive in cold weather, and can cause pressure spikes, but have not been able to find a definitive answer either way. BE-86 is another excellent power with a flash suppressant if you can find some

[John A.]

I appreciate reading your posts so much.  I learn something every time I come here.

I do have some BE86.  It did pretty good.  #9 was still the best velocity numbers I have seen that I've tried.  Longshot and titegroup were Ok too.  Nothing to write home about.  But, OK and not pathetic numbers like some I see posted with some commercial manufacturers shooting over a chrono on youtube.  It's like some of them are loading for 40 S&W or something?  The whole point of 10mm is to see a noticeable gain.  Not get 9mm velocities and penetration which is what I have observed from several sources.

And to be honest, that's what kept me from getting into 10mm for so long.  But, in seeing some of the numbers I'm able to load to, are respectable and opening my eyes to what the round is capable of.

I had a conversation with a good friend of mine today who was asking why I built the (10mm) pistol cal.  So, I politely showed him that the energy (foot pound) numbers I'm getting are on par with what he could get out of a 223 rem.  He didn't believe me at first but I pulled up the calculator ( https://larrywillis.com/bullet-energy.html ) and showed him.

Actually, the 155 gr bullet at 1770 fps average has ~50 more ft lb of energy than a 55 gr 223 at 2900 fps does.  And with more bullet length and larger diameter bullet that doesn't fragment all into pieces when it hits something.  So, that got him quietly thinking that just maybe a pistol caliber could be a viable trunk or brush gun.   I don't think he was expecting to see the energy numbers that I was seeing from it.

I don't really mind blue dot being flashy as long as I don't get a lot of blowback in the face from it.   I suspect that the carbine barrel may reduce a lot of that compared to using it out of a handgun at least.  I have some 180 gr round nose armscor bullets.  I could see if I could find the overall length of the xtp's and try to decipher how deep to seat them so I don't compress the charges.  I generally start at the longest col allowed and go from there.  Along with dropping the charges some and working up, but that goes without saying.  I want to keep my fingers where God originally put them. 

[Kenk]

Absolutely, I know Underwood is getting 1,600 fps out of their 135gr bullets, but have looked high and low, and everyone seems to be out of them. The 155gr are always good as you mentioned. I?m sure some of the others can help more with the stout BD loads

[Graybeard]

Hello John A. I too have been bitten by the PCC in 10mm bug.

It's been my experience that Blue Dot doesn't really like to be pushed to max loads. It's great for accuracy at moderate velocities. As Ken mentioned the 10.4gr under 180gr bullets seems to be the magic number. Many other members have stated the same thing, exactly.

I had very good results with Power Pistol, Longshot, and 800x, when trying for max velocity out of my AR carbine. 800X has a very unusual and unpredictable potential for pressure spikes when loaded to the max. Longshot does not. 9.4gr or 9.6gr of Longshot was as far as I went with 180gr XTPs, Armscor FMJs, and Zero 180gr HPs. Sorry, I'm not at home to look at my log. I haven't tried #9 yet as my chronograph has died and I'm waiting for Labradars to come back in stock.

Be aware that there is some old .357 load data for Blue Dot using 125gr bullets. While Blue Dot is a very dependable powder, it's use for 125gr bullets is no longer recommended because it was discovered to have rare and flukey pressure spikes with that bullet weight. Same with 800X. I shot a bunch of those with no problem at max, all hand weighed charges, and had one go off like a proof load. No damage, but very disconcerting.

Be safe and have fun!

[John A.]

Thank you both for the replies.  They are appreciated.

Even if the bluedot doesn't get as much speed as some of the others, I'm thankful to have it.  Especially in the current environment.  Sadly, I don't see things getting better any time soon.  If anything, I'm still expecting much worse.

I have other guns I can use the powder in too.  So, it's not just a single use powder.  But, I am most interested in finding out what it will do in the 10mm the most and was the whole reason I ordered it.

Graybeard, I wasn't aware of that with bluedot and 125 gr 357.  After thinking about it, I think I may have a handful of 125 gr xtp in the box.  Though, I generally load it with 158's is my go to weight for those.

I just glanced at the alliant load data page and you are correct that they do not even list the 125 gr bullet in it. So, thank you for the heads up.

[Kenk]

Hey John, I?m pretty sure there are some archived posts in regards to pushing 135 - 165gr 10mm bullets to near max, but I haven?t been able to find many. Personally, if I want to milk out some serious velocity in the 10mm, my go-to rd is Underwood?s 135gr with the Nosler bullet. I?ll admit I?m not as adventurous as some when it comes to this, but that?s ok

* BALLISTICS INFORMATION
* Ballistic Coefficient (G1) : 0.090
* Muzzle Energy (ft. lbs) : 768
* Muzzle Velocity (fps) : 1,600
* Sectional Density : 0.120

[fltbed]

Hey John, congratulations on the BD score.

As many of us have said, that 10.4 gr load with almost any well made 180 gr bullet seems to be the accuracy magic load for every 10mm I've tried it in.  Personal favorites are the Xtreme Hollow point or the Star HP for killing paper or steel plates and the Hornady XTP for a hunting bullet.  (I load the 180 gr Star Hp with 10.2 gr exclusively in my 40 Deep Throat sudo wildcat)

I always say I load more for accuracy and if I need more power, I get a bigger caliber but I wasn't always.  Back in my teen years through my early 20's I went through what I call my Magnumitus phase when I tried to load everything I had to the absolute max velocity. I tested a lot of Blue Dot in 9mm, 45 acp, 38 spl / 357, etc.

Going through my notes, (and I kept notes only because Elmer Kieth said it was a good idea) I could only find two other loads where that "accuracy magic" happened.
The first was a 45 acp +P load using the old Speer 200 gr "flying ashtray" and the other was my affordable "lite magnum" 454 Casull load using the old 260 gr Speer flat point.  (still seems humorous calling a load pushing a 260 gr 45 caliber bullet 1450 fps lite but you have to keep in context the factory load was pushing a 260 gr bullet close to 2000 fps!)

Going back to 10mm, I never found another bullet weight where that accuracy magic happened.  With 135 & 155 gr bullets, Power Pistol was always more accurate.  With 200 & 220 gr bullets, #9 and sometimes Longshot were more accurate.
I recently got to chrono my 180gr, 10.4 gr loads in a 12" Mec-Tech CCU and was getting 1400 fps with 3" 50 yard groups.  Your 16" barrel should give you a bit more velocity and I would think adequate for hunting.

Jeff

[Kenk]

Thanks for the info Jeff, I?ve always liked loads.45?s, and think it?s time to work up some new loads

[John A.]

Thank you very much for the reply fltbed. 

For many years, I have been loading my own because I can get much better results than what I can get from commercial ammo.  That's not bragging on my behalf, but I've designed and made a lot of silencers and most commercial subsonic rounds that you can buy, leave a lot to be desired.  That's putting it very mildly and politely.

So, for me to get excited over seeing what I can wring out of a bullet and powder combination is outside the norm for me.   

I don't necessarily have to push a bullet as hard as I can for me to like it either.  Though, I'm trying to get a complete pass through at the distances that I hunt because I lost a deer year before last because even though while it was a good hit, it was able to run much further than I would have ever suspected, crossed the property line into the state animal reserve, so my goal is to avoid that happening again if at all possible.

I'm sure I'm not the only guy that has ever lost a deer, but it still about made me sick because I'm not a wasteful type and had I known how it would've played out, I never would've even went that morning and I do not like not being able to find it and it losing its' life being wasted.

One of the reasons I think it made it as far as it did is that I only found about 4 drops of blood while tracking it in a place where it stopped for a minute.  So, I think the entrance wound sealed up.  And with no exit, means it leaked out in its' chest cavity.  I have no doubt that it died soon after from the way it was acting.  But, as I said, I'm just trying to squeeze all that I can out of whichever load that I narrow down the closer to season opening.

And that is even considering if I don't take one with a crossbow before then.  I've been blessed to have taken several with the crossbow and I've never had one run more than a handful of steps before they're done.  Archery starts much earlier and if I can get another with the crossbow, that's fine too.  My season will be over then.  But, if not, I want to believe that I'll be bringing the best that I can to the table with the 10mm as plan B.

And I'll be using the 10mm at crossbow ranges too.  So, I'm hoping that it's up to the task.  18-25 yards is my average shot distance up there.  So, while accuracy is a concern of course, but I'm hoping to get a complete pass through the boiler room.  I just have no idea if my expectations are realistic from it or not.

I'm still really torn whether to choose the 155 xtp or the 180 xtp.  Even though the 155 is shorter, it is still several hundred more fps behind it.  1770 fps vs 1550 fps.  1080 ft lbs vs. 960 ft lbs.  ~50 feet away.  At those numbers and distances, I don't think the lighter bullet would be disappointing.

I also bought the 175 gr Lee truncated cone mold that I'm going to try a few powder coated hard cast with it that I may choose over the xtp's?  Decisions, decisions.

[Kenk]

Hey John, my average distance is very similar with the P220 10, and have had the most success with 180, and 200gr XTP or gold dots. For me, a pass through isn?t that relevant, they usually just fall over in 50 yards or less.

[Kenk]

When you consider that short of a distance, a 200gr bullet is still really moven

[John A.]

You're not wrong kenk.  That's still pretty fast and hitting hard.

[Kenk]

Absolutely, and a 200gr expanding bullet makes for a pretty large  wound  cavity as well. I understand losing a critter in the woods is a painful thing, and most do everything possible to avoid it from happening. A good (large) expanding bullet hitting at around 1,200 fps at 25 yards or less should make most any mid sized critter fall over  pretty quickly, at least in my experience. I guess it comes down to what we think is the most humane way to d it. I?m sure a 155gr traveling substantially faster would work equally well, I just like a heavier bullet

[John A.]

Normally I like a heavier bullet too.  I prefer to lob heavy artillery.   If it weren't for being worried about meat loss, I would use cannonballs.  60mm mortar.  You know, just whatever I had laying around handy at the time 

I would imaging the only thing different between the 155 and 180 xtp is the length, weight and velocity.  Other than that, I would figure they're pretty much the same.

Would either do what it needed to at the distance that I'd likely be using it at?  Probably.  I just commonly tend to over-think things like this.

Maybe I should shoot a couple into some 5 gallon buckets full of water or sand and see if one or the other shows a marked improvement over the other.  Then I could put the question to rest.