200gr Nosler JHP Expansion???

[Patriot]

I ordered a big box of these with some Starline brass to make into some heavy defensive rounds to carry in the Pasayten Wilderness on my deer hunt this year. I hope they are as good as advertised.

[Intercooler]

[Raggedyman]

It looks as though you would be better off with 200 gr XTPs if you're looking for deep penetration coupled with some expansion.

[doverpack12]

I actually like the Nosler 200 gr performance better than XTP's.  I find the XTP's have shed their jackets more often when I recover them from dirt banks.  Yes they do penetrate a little more than the noslers. 

[Clarinath]

Gun
EAA Witness 10mm, 6" bbl, 22 lb recoil spring

The cartridge
200gr Nosler JHP, Starline brass, CCI Magnum Pistol Primers, 10.5 gr of Blue Dot

The bullets did not fare well at those speeds.  I shot the first through 2 gallon jugs, then 2 gallon laundry detergent jugs and they ended up in a final gallon milk jug.  The second shot was through 2 one gallon laundry detergent jugs and two milk jugs.

Chrono was 1310, 1288 and I fired a third bullet for speed, not at a target and it was 1303

[DM1906]

I actually like the Nosler 200 gr performance better than XTP's.  I find the XTP's have shed their jackets more often when I recover them from dirt banks.  Yes they do penetrate a little more than the noslers.

Did you kill the dirt bank?  Or did it continue firing on you?

[RRMan03]

I hate to say this but I do not like Nosler or Hornady 200gr for the reason you can see. They can and do come apart depending on what you are shooting at and how it is hit. If you want penetration use a solid. If you want expansion about any will do that but they might not go deep or they might blow up. If you want both use the all copper bullet as it cannot come apart as it is a solid piece.The only problem is sometimes they expand so much it cuts down on penetration. Ask anybody who shoots them a lot.It is a must that the velocity be up for them to work good. Even in my muzzloader i shoot them at over 2000fps and the will kill anything on the North American continent including Grizzlies.Their solids in the large caliber dangerous game guns have taken over from all others in the African market for buffalo,hippo,elephant. The ones you have to penetrate and break down. I used to love Noslers before Barnes arrived but I had some blow ups with Nosler Partions.Never have I had a Barnes to fail.I have been lucky as all bullets will fail but some are much worse than others. In handgun JHP I like the Speer Gold Dots pretty well also.I guess it is just personal choice and what works in your gun for you when you need it to. That really is all that matters. Shoot them till you figure out what works for you.I never try to tell anyone what to use I just tell them my experience with each.

[doverpack12]

I actually like the Nosler 200 gr performance better than XTP's.  I find the XTP's have shed their jackets more often when I recover them from dirt banks.  Yes they do penetrate a little more than the noslers.

Did you kill the dirt bank?  Or did it continue firing on you?

The dirt bank serves two purposes.  Its a great backstop so I can shoot at my house.  It is also a fairly consistent meidum that I can shoot all bullets, rifle to handgun into and see how they expand when compared to one another when loaded and shot at different velocities.  I can then compare this result to what I see on forums such as this one and formulate my own opinion from that based on velocity, expansion, penetration and overall performance.  Any 200 grain .40 cal bullet will do the job if and when whatever I am shooting at is shooting back, (many others work well also this was just about 200 grain bullets).

[DM1906]

I actually like the Nosler 200 gr performance better than XTP's.  I find the XTP's have shed their jackets more often when I recover them from dirt banks.  Yes they do penetrate a little more than the noslers.

Did you kill the dirt bank?  Or did it continue firing on you?

The dirt bank serves two purposes.  Its a great backstop so I can shoot at my house.  It is also a fairly consistent meidum that I can shoot all bullets, rifle to handgun into and see how they expand when compared to one another when loaded and shot at different velocities.  I can then compare this result to what I see on forums such as this one and formulate my own opinion from that based on velocity, expansion, penetration and overall performance.  Any 200 grain .40 cal bullet will do the job if and when whatever I am shooting at is shooting back, (many others work well also this was just about 200 grain bullets).

There's nothing wrong with shooting into the dirt.  I do it myself, for various reasons.  My reason for the question was practicality.  If you are using it for comparative purposes, it's only relevant when comparing other bullets shot into the dirt.  It has no relevant comparison with bullet performance fired into tissue.  Assuming a bullet performs poorly because it frag'd and shed its jacket "in the dirt", tells nothing of bullet performance, when the performance is required in tissue.  I used to shoot rounds into a swimming pool and recover the bullets.  It was "neat", and the bullets never got away.  I got wet, but that's as close as I've ever come to being attacked by a pool, and I started it.  If you find your bullets perform remotely similar in dirt (or a swimming pool) compared to tissue, it was only coincidental.

[doverpack12]

I actually like the Nosler 200 gr performance better than XTP's.  I find the XTP's have shed their jackets more often when I recover them from dirt banks.  Yes they do penetrate a little more than the noslers.

Did you kill the dirt bank?  Or did it continue firing on you?

The dirt bank serves two purposes.  Its a great backstop so I can shoot at my house.  It is also a fairly consistent meidum that I can shoot all bullets, rifle to handgun into and see how they expand when compared to one another when loaded and shot at different velocities.  I can then compare this result to what I see on forums such as this one and formulate my own opinion from that based on velocity, expansion, penetration and overall performance.  Any 200 grain .40 cal bullet will do the job if and when whatever I am shooting at is shooting back, (many others work well also this was just about 200 grain bullets).

There's nothing wrong with shooting into the dirt.  I do it myself, for various reasons.  My reason for the question was practicality.  If you are using it for comparative purposes, it's only relevant when comparing other bullets shot into the dirt.  It has no relevant comparison with bullet performance fired into tissue.  Assuming a bullet performs poorly because it frag'd and shed its jacket "in the dirt", tells nothing of bullet performance, when the performance is required in tissue.  I used to shoot rounds into a swimming pool and recover the bullets.  It was "neat", and the bullets never got away.  I got wet, but that's as close as I've ever come to being attacked by a pool, and I started it.  If you find your bullets perform remotely similar in dirt (or a swimming pool) compared to tissue, it was only coincidental.

I agree there is no comparrison to tissue.  Since only a coroner ever sees how bullets actually perform I use the dirt as just one more tool to help compare bullets to one another then I compare them to any tests on forums and such that do the same thing with both bullets and then maybe find some with water jugs or wet phone books.  All I look for is relatively consistent and good performance in all aspects.

[DM1906]

I actually like the Nosler 200 gr performance better than XTP's.  I find the XTP's have shed their jackets more often when I recover them from dirt banks.  Yes they do penetrate a little more than the noslers.

Did you kill the dirt bank?  Or did it continue firing on you?

The dirt bank serves two purposes.  Its a great backstop so I can shoot at my house.  It is also a fairly consistent meidum that I can shoot all bullets, rifle to handgun into and see how they expand when compared to one another when loaded and shot at different velocities.  I can then compare this result to what I see on forums such as this one and formulate my own opinion from that based on velocity, expansion, penetration and overall performance.  Any 200 grain .40 cal bullet will do the job if and when whatever I am shooting at is shooting back, (many others work well also this was just about 200 grain bullets).

There's nothing wrong with shooting into the dirt.  I do it myself, for various reasons.  My reason for the question was practicality.  If you are using it for comparative purposes, it's only relevant when comparing other bullets shot into the dirt.  It has no relevant comparison with bullet performance fired into tissue.  Assuming a bullet performs poorly because it frag'd and shed its jacket "in the dirt", tells nothing of bullet performance, when the performance is required in tissue.  I used to shoot rounds into a swimming pool and recover the bullets.  It was "neat", and the bullets never got away.  I got wet, but that's as close as I've ever come to being attacked by a pool, and I started it.  If you find your bullets perform remotely similar in dirt (or a swimming pool) compared to tissue, it was only coincidental.

I agree there is no comparrison to tissue.  Since only a coroner ever sees how bullets actually perform I use the dirt as just one more tool to help compare bullets to one another then I compare them to any tests on forums and such that do the same thing with both bullets and then maybe find some with water jugs or wet phone books.  All I look for is relatively consistent and good performance in all aspects.

Wet phone books or news print is pretty good.  Better than bare ballistic gel, IMO.  My point being, no matter what results you observe with dirt-fired bullets, it's no comparison to tissue.  None.  It's only relevant to other bullets fired into dirt, and have no bearing to bullets fired into tissue.  In the end, bullet composition and design is overplayed, by a lot, when it comes to actual function.  The same bullets fired into the same tissue (animal, corpse, victim, suspect, etc.) will behave differently, shot to shot.  More critical is what the bullet strikes once it penetrates.  I've seen it many times, I'm a retired sheriff/coroner.

[sqlbullet]

Ultimately nothing behaves like human tissue other than human tissue.

I agree with shooting into what you have readily available as a means of comparative analysis between different bullet types, as long as you understand and quantify what properties of the bullet you are testing and how that may relate to real world scenarios.

For instance..

Dirt would be a great medium for testing absolute penetration of non-expanding rounds.  While they would penetrate different absolute distances in tissue than in dirt, you could probably come up with a pretty accurate equation for predicting the penetration in tissue based on the penetration in dirt.

Another is what dover alluded to; absolute toughness of the bullet.  Chances are a bullet that both expands and stays together in generic dirt will stay together in tissue.  Yes, there may be a few bullet types that are susceptible to hydraulic separation that won't separate in dirt, but overall, I would feel pretty good that 75% of the bullets that hang together in conglomerate sand, clay, bio and gravel (common dirt) would also hang together in tissue (skin, fat, muscle, sinew cartilage and bone).

However, I do agree that dirt, as an overall comparator, is not going to give results relevant to performance in tissue.

[Raggedyman]

Dr. Roberts tells us that calibrated ordnance gelatin is remarkably consistent with human tissue, except for bone, which is very difficult to predict. It is often said that other mediums are as good as or better than calibrated gelatin and that's simply not true, according to physicians who have examined bullet wounds in human beings as well as conducted gelatin tests. It is also a commonly held misconception that nothing can accurately predict the behavior of a bullet in tissue. That is true to the extent that a lot of variables such as impact velocity, angle, clothing, bone, etc. do have some impact but the primary mechanism is the interaction of the bullet with soft tissue and the gelatin accurately depicts that interaction. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it's very close and about as good as you're going to get without shooting thousands of live human beings or pigs.


Dirt is substantially more dense than tissue, water, gelatin, etc. and I would expect it to behave in a different manner. I doubt that it is able to tell you anything other than how a given bullet behaves in dirt.

[doverpack12]

I plan to use all results and test mediums I can to find a bullet that performs consistently in everything available.  To me this ensures the best chance the bullet will perform as designed no matter what.  I compare the dirt results with gellatin results on the internet and forums and also water jug tests and phone book/newspaper tests and any other test I find to compare it to.  When a bullet performs consistently in all of these mediums at varying velocities then that justifies to me that the bullet will perform regardless of range, velocity, or whatever it hits be it animal or human if necessary.

[Raggedyman]

That sounds reasonable.