Forming 9x25 Dillon.

[gnappi]

Anyone formed 9x25 from 10 brass?

I don't have a barrel yet, but I have been playing with my Sig dies and moving the brass is rather easy. But since there are no 9x25 case gauges I'll have to wait for a barrel to start really experimenting.

To that end... here are the issues.

1. Body size with a 10mm FL die and push shoulder back (will wind up the wrong shoulder taper / angle) and then neck size with super or Sig die? I'd likely have to push the shoulder back a wee bit more than if I were using a 9x25 die due to the sig shoulder taper. Then fire forming / blowing out the shoulder with low pressure loads, annealing and reloading as in initial forming.

This "should/ may" work but fire forming will lose some brass, not an issue I have a LOT! Once the brass is fire formed body size with 10mm die and neck size. This shouldn't be an issue as I'd only have one 9x25 barrel and I've fireformed brass for use in one barrel quite a bit.

2. Using 9x25 Dillon dies which are right now unobtanium... at least for the next (Dillon quoted) two years worth of lead time.

What are the pitfalls? Finished case length? Bullet neck / case tension issues?

I've done a LOT of case forming like .30 and .357 Herrett, .222 from .223 etc. So I've pretty much been schooled by fire regarding case dents, annealing and such.

Oh, I'd be using 150 +/- grain powder coated bullets, it seems to me puny 115/125 grain bullets are a waste of time, anyone have a source of load data for loads up to 160 grain bullets

[sqlbullet]

My 9X25 life has been all fits and starts...But never a shot fired.

First, I bought a 38 super barrel for a witness with the intention of having it reamed.  That fizzled and now the barrel resides in a Witness Stock III.

Then I noticed that barrels for Glocks seemed to be drying up so I bought conversion barrels for my Glock 20 and 29.  Around the same time Dillon happened to have dies in stock when I had money in the bank, so I got dies too.

Even with the correct dies, making good brass is a challenge.  Of course I was compiicating my own life by trying to load cast bullets, which meant expanding necks in addition to some flare.  That led to a goose chase for an expanding die that would work with a bottle neck case that short.  I think that is about where I last stalled.

It may be time to get back to this.

[The_Shadow]

gnappi, I have used the Dillon 9x25 Dies for the sizing operation from 10mm brass and they do a fantastic job!
For my heck expander I used the RCBS 9mm expander as it makes for uniform and straighter necks and bullet tension is also great as sized.

I will say that the Dillon sizing die can over size the case and set the shoulder back too far if not set properly.  If the shoulder is pushed down too far it tends to over work the area as they are fire formed inside the chamber and that can lead to case neck splits and or separations.  This can also happen in properly sized cases as well with multi uses.

The Dillon seater and taper crimp dies do an great job for each operation.

I have had success with many bullets and even cast bullets in my three different guns  with barrels for the cartridge.  Shorter bullet with ogive roundness can pose an issue with the neck tension.
I do like bullets that are 0.356" and even 0.357" for this cartridge.  The 6" barrel tends to yield the best velocities over the shorter 5" and 3.78" barrels I have.

I have heard of guys using the 357 Sig dies but the shoulder angle is very different.  and the necks can crack or split as they expanded to fill the chamber.

All that being said, Headspacing is of the utmost importance...I like to be flush with the barrel hood with mine and no deeper than 0.002" below the hood.  If they go too deep the firing may have light strikes.

Here are a few of mine, the ones on the left side are 0.357 bullets the ones on the right are Zero brand 0.356" bullets for the 38 Super

[gnappi]

SQL and shadow, thanks for your thoughtful replies. 

I ordered a 6" barrel today for my Springfield with a Remington R1 long slide. Since Dillon will not  be able  to provide a die set, I'll have to go the .357 Sig Die set.

The shoulder angle shouldn't be an issue fireforming it. The key to FF is using a low pressure load, and annealing afterward. I'll have case attrition but I can afford it.

I did something similar in the 70's with an ackley improved case, a very similar situation.  Once I get the bbl hopefully I'll work it out, two years wait for dies is not an option :-)

[Mike D]

gnappi, I have used the Dillon 9x25 Dies for the sizing operation from 10mm brass and they do a fantastic job!
For my heck expander I used the RCBS 9mm expander as it makes for uniform and straighter necks and bullet tension is also great as sized.

I will say that the Dillon sizing die can over size the case and set the shoulder back too far if not set properly.  If the shoulder is pushed down too far it tends to over work the area as they are fire formed inside the chamber and that can lead to case neck splits and or separations.  This can also happen in properly sized cases as well with multi uses.

The Dillon seater and taper crimp dies do an great job for each operation.

I have had success with many bullets and even cast bullets in my three different guns  with barrels for the cartridge.  Shorter bullet with ogive roundness can pose an issue with the neck tension.
I do like bullets that are 0.356" and even 0.357" for this cartridge.  The 6" barrel tends to yield the best velocities over the shorter 5" and 3.78" barrels I have.

I have heard of guys using the 357 Sig dies but the shoulder angle is very different.  and the necks can crack or split as they expanded to fill the chamber.

All that being said, Headspacing is of the utmost importance...I like to be flush with the barrel hood with mine and no deeper than 0.002" below the hood.  If they go too deep the firing may have light strikes.

Here are a few of mine, the ones on the left side are 0.357 bullets the ones on the right are Zero brand 0.356" bullets for the 38 Super

This is exactly what I do. I use 9x25 Dillon dies to form from 10mm brass. Then I use a Redding 9mm expander die.

When setting my die I took my barrel out and pushed the shoulder back and did the plunk test until it was set back correctly.

Wilson will make a custom case gauge for you as another option.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[The_Shadow]

SQL and shadow, thanks for your thoughtful replies. 

I ordered a 6" barrel today for my Springfield with a Remington R1 long slide. Since Dillon will not  be able  to provide a die set, I'll have to go the .357 Sig Die set.

The shoulder angle shouldn't be an issue fireforming it. The key to FF is using a low pressure load, and annealing afterward. I'll have case attrition but I can afford it.

I did something similar in the 70's with an ackley improved case, a very similar situation.  Once I get the bbl hopefully I'll work it out, two years wait for dies is not an option :-)

Here is an idea for you to try (just a thought)...Use the 357Sig die to start the shoulder, then use the barrel to do the last little bit of shoulder.  Might could clamp the barrel in a fixture, lube the casing and press the case the rest of the way, then tap the sized case back out.
If your 9x25 barrel is as tight as mine for my Glock, it is almost like a case gauge!

Good luck!

[gnappi]

Well, I LUCKED OUT and won a set of 9x25 dies on Ebay so I won't have to be diddling with the sig dies after all.

[gnappi]

Thanks all for the comments. The dies and barrel came in and I have a couple of hundred cases all set and ready to reload. I have fit the barrel mostly to the slide but am waiting for some stuff to arrive to finish fitting it to the gun.

Here are my methods, and results.

Step one, FL size in a carbide 10mm sizing die.

This makes pushing the neck and shoulder down a lot easier even in my ginormous BIG Max press. It's more time consuming but IMO it's worth it.

Step two, Lube and FL size / form the shoulder in the Dillon die.

The result of this operation sized the cases to fit the chamber of the new barrel perfectly. As a matter of fact,  I set the press ram to fully cam over with the shell holder pressing firmly on the base of the case and it seems impossible to push the neck further down than it needs to be.

Also the Dillon die under size the ID of the neck by .010" wayyy tooo tight.


Step 3, Size / expand the neck in my spare .357 Sig sizing die.

This operation expands the neck to where I can comfortably use my powder coated bullets. The slightly down side is I lose 4% of the finished cases to neck splits, I really expected this. On one hand it's no biggie as I have a LOT of 10mm brass on the other it sux that I have to spend the time on  cases that are doomed to be unusable.


Step 4, Anneal the cases.

I'm using a socket in a drill and putting the case in the socket and spin it while heating with a torch, then quenching. I'm only going to anneal  half of my brass  to see how different the case  attrition is after firing the cases. If the results don't give me many more splits, I'll skip  annealing.


So until I get the rest of the things I need to fit the bull barrel to the slide I'll have time to load some low pressure loads.  More to come. 

[The_Shadow]

gnappi, were the dies the Dillon 9x25?  If they are then they have dual carbide sizing sections (one reason they are pricey)
I also run all 10mm/40S&W/357SIG/9x25 Dillon brass completely through my LEE FCD as a push through setup.
With the Dillon dies, I haven't had to use any lube because of the dual carbide sections.
I utilize the RCBS 9mm neck expander die because it is longer, straighter and can actually flare the case mouth as needed for cast bullets.  Haven't had any problems with necks splitting with this.

Glad you were able to find the dies to help you with the 9x25 project.  Be sure to not over size and set the shoulder back.  I like to be at 0.000" (FLUSH) but no more the 0.002" below the barrel hood.

Good luck with everything, if I can be of help let me know! 

[gnappi]

gnappi, were the dies the Dillon 9x25?  If they are then they have dual carbide sizing sections (one reason they are pricey)
I also run all 10mm/40S&W/357SIG/9x25 Dillon brass completely through my LEE FCD as a push through setup.
With the Dillon dies, I haven't had to use any lube because of the dual carbide sections.
I utilize the RCBS 9mm neck expander die because it is longer, straighter and can actually flare the case mouth as needed for cast bullets.  Haven't had any problems with necks splitting with this.

Glad you were able to find the dies to help you with the 9x25 project.  Be sure to not over size and set the shoulder back.  I like to be at 0.000" (FLUSH) but no more the 0.002" below the barrel hood.

Good luck with everything, if I can be of help let me know! 

Thanks a lot!

I'm using a .38 super taper crimp die and it's holding the 139 grain powder coated bullets firmly. Unfortunately that's the largest bullet mold I have that will meet the COAL for the 10mm magazines. All of my heavier bullets have longer noses that will not crimp and still meet the COAL.

I called Alliant today to see if they had any load data for any of their AA powders which I have a LOT of but they said being that it's not a "standard" cartridge they would not invest the time and resources to work up loads for it. So, I'm on my own there using "close" data I found on the web for lead bullets and I'll take it from there.

Are you using any cast bullets? Mine are an old Lyman mold see pic.

[The_Shadow]

gnappi, What Alliant Powders do you have to work with?  I have used Blue Dot, Power Pistol and want to test with BE-86 when I get the chance.

I have three molds for the cast bullets, the LEE 125 R2 round nose, Lee 122 Truncated Cone but my favorite is the Lyman 125 grain Devastator Cast Hollow Point, they are close to 130 grains with the alloy. 

These are the Lee 122 grain TC sized at 0.3565"


The two loaded jacketed rounds on the left are 0.357" old 110 grain and the unloaded is a 125 grain Remington JHP.  The cast bullet shown is the Lyman Devastator 125 grain Cast HP sized at 0.3565", the other loaded rounds are ZERO brand 121 grain 0.356" that the sell for the 38Super.


This is the 121 grain ZERO bulled as recovered from water jugs (water is hard on bullets)

[gnappi]

I have Alliant 5,7 (Dirty junk #7 is) , and 9. I found some data from reloadammo.com for .357 Sig for all three powders, they're good starting points.

[The_Shadow]

Those are Accurate Arms Powder #5, #7 & #9  They were Western Powders and are now owned by Hodgdon.

There is data for them in 9x25 Dillon here on our forum from older Lyman data as developed by Randy Shelley back in the day.
https://www.10mm-firearms.com/wildcats/9x25dillon/msg1103/#msg1103

Factory Pull down documentations
https://www.10mm-firearms.com/factory-ammo-pull-downs/underwood-9x25dillon-speer-125gr-tmj-pull-down-2687/msg30017/#msg30017

[gnappi]

Shadow, thx much for the tables you graciously supplied for the 9x25. Question? Are they from the Lyman #2 handbook? If so, Maybe you have also found that Lyman manuals are on the  conservative side, as a matter of fact, I ultimately came to use Alliant data exclusively as every load I ever used from their manuals for high energy cartridges like 10mm, .45 Win mag, .357 mag etc. to be safe and provide more energy.

Anyway, my gun frame is from a longslide 10mm Kimber (I continue to use the Kimber slide as a 10mm) and for this 9x25 project I used a long slide Remington stainless R1 with a 10mm recoil spring. The 6" Wilson / Nowlin ramped bull barrel is from Fusion in Florida. Late today I went to the range with a few dozen 139 grain PC'd bullets. 

All of the brass I formed was previously fired with an unknown number of firings (which could be anywhere between 1 and 10 or more, and possibly the reason for 4-6% case splits which were not annealed after forming) and my first load was 7.5 grains of AA5 behind the 139's (at the max in the tables you linked to for 130's) and that load would not latch the slide back on the last round. This load  may work with a 5" slide build I'm planning when the barrel for it comes available.

Conventional wisdom does not step up 5 grains at a time, but my range is a 45 minute drive each way in traffic and not worth a 1-2 grain increase just to load some more to drive back. My next steps were 8.0 and 8.5 grains of #5.

The 8.0 grain load most of the time would latch the slide, while the 8.5 grain latched the slide 100% of the time without cracked, bulged, split cases or flattened primers, so off hand I'll consider this my max load and I'll likely try 8.2 to see how the longslide functions with it. This summer, I'll re-evaluate all of my 8+ grain loads in Florida's sweltering summer heat.

Accuracy and function was excellent with both of the 8+ grain loads, recoil was mostly straight back... not uncomfortable at all, but nothing a 9mm polymer fan would endure past the first shot. The fireball from the 8.5 grains of #5 was to say the least impressive. It's like I had my .357 magnum Coonan back!

Now after I fully flesh out the 9x25 loads in the 6" slide, when a 5" barrel comes in for my RIA 10mm slide which will go on my Springfield 10mm Ronin frame, I'm gonna jump on it like a flea on a dog :-)

Lots more to come...

[The_Shadow]

Gary, the Hodgdon Longshot powder has been one of the best for higher velocity in the 9x25 and was used by Double Tap in their loadings.
Underwood took a slightly different approach and used IMR800X, SHOOTERS WORLD RELOADING PROPELLANTS MAJOR PISTOL / LOVEX D037-01 (same as AA#7 powder) and also Longshot in their various loadings.

see that documentation here: https://www.10mm-firearms.com/factory-ammo-pull-downs/underwood-9x25dillon-speer-125gr-tmj-pull-down-2687/