Why no hot hard cast for self defense

[ssgrock3]

Clearly underwoods anything jacketed would be hell on a human, but so would a 220gr chunk of lead.  Perhaps it is not defined as best tool for the job, if you have other choices, but if I found some, it might be appealing vs $2/rd for Underwood hp and hunting rounds. 


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[blaster]

I shoot a lot of hard cast bullets in my .45 acp & 10mm pistols. I usually use them for woods carry when hog hunting or bear defense. for white tail hunting or self defense, I prefer hollow point bullets.  hard cast bullets could cause problems from over penetration on soft targets in an urban situation.

[sqlbullet]

A 200 grain WFN loaded to 1200 fps will go all the way through 11 gallon jugs of water.  Tested it myself.  Don't know how many more it would penetrate, eleven is all that would fit on my table.

That definitely backs up blaster's assertion that they would completely penetrate "soft" targets.

OTOH, only 25% of shots fired in defensive shootings hit the target.  So, personally, I don't get too wrapped up about over-penetration.  If you aren't sure of "beyond the target" then you need to re-evaluate the urgency of taking the shot.

Next up is efficacy of hard cast for personal defense.  They are certainly the right choice for woods carry where additional penetration to reach vital organs is required.  In a defensive use against a human attacker the added expansion and corresponding tissue disruption and exsanguination are important to stopping the attack.  If I were having to choose a non-expanding bullet for such defense I would definitely want a SWC or WFN profile that cuts clean hole rather than a round nose that may just push tissue out of the way.

Interesting historical note, the 9mm Luger was originally loaded with a TC design bullet.  It was so much more effective than round nose bullet designs that the Germans were accused of violating the Hague Conventions Declaration III.  They switched back to the familiar 9mm round nose profile to decrease the effectiveness of the round and defray the accusations (Fallschirmjäger: German Paratrooper 1935–45, Bruce Quarrie, pg 58).

This suggests the truncated cone design would be an excellent choice if using cast bullets for personal defense.  The TC will generally feed a little more reliably than WC/SWC designs and is about equally effective in terminal performance in "soft" targets.

Also, note that I said cast bullets and not hard cast.  In most modern offerings "hard cast" are far harder than Elmer Keith and his cohorts envisioned in the early to mid 20th century.  For Keith a hard cast bullet was one made from 10:1 or 16:1 lead to tin.  These alloys have a BHN hardness rating of about 11, a hardness that is scoffed at today by the masses that demand hard cast bullets in the 20-22 BHN or higher.  None-the-less, a BHN of 10-12 is a great choice for hunting or defense as long as the alloy is not loaded with antimony to the point that it becomes brittle.  The magic of a lead/tin alloy is the tin adds hardness while retaining the malleability of the final metal.  Antimony boosts hardness, but also makes the alloy brittle.

Finally, there are a great many fine hollow-point molds on the market.  When couples with an appropriately hard and malleable alloy they deliver fine expansion in softer targets like whitetail deer and similar beasts.  Such bullets should work very well as a defensive choice.

All of this ignores the possible (probable?) legal implications of using cast bullets and hand loaded ammunition for personal defense.  That is another completely different and far more contentious debate that often renders the above discussion moot.

[Neal]

Underwood produces lead hollow points in 38 Special, but none in 10mm. That does not mean lead HP loads would not work well in 10mm, just that there must not be much market for them. GT Bullets has a selection of cast HP in 40/10mm that can be handloaded. Some people will not carry handloads for self defense, but I have in years past and would not hesitate to do it again. The lack of availability and outrageous cost of factory ammo may be the catalyst that drives me to carry non-factory loads. As far as the "legal implications", I have yet to hear of someone who was convicted of a crime for using handloads for self defense. It is either a legitimate shoot, or it is not.

[Kenk]

For me, Underwood's 165 Gold Dot in 10mm is perfect for carry. You figure at  $25.00 including shipping for 20 rd's, or $1.25 per rd, it not bad considering you will likely never shoot one in a defensive situation. The big expensive for me was reliability testing, as I like to run 200 rd's in my carry weapons with no malfunctions
Thanks

Ken

[blaster]

Kenk, #1 on testing ammo before potentially staking your life on it!
I also like 165 gr. J.H.P. bullets  for "urban" self defense.

[Kenk]

 Absolutely, sure, you can do a 200 rd, 300, or  really any amount of testing of a specific ammo for reliability, and still have an issue. For me, say in the XDm 3.8 - 9, I ran 200 rds of Federal's LE 124gr + P which came in boxes of 50 running aprx $27.00 per box, way more economical than the rip boxes of 20. For me, extensive ammo testing is paramount, along with frequent cleaning, but not dousing it in lubricant, just my two cents

[sparkyv]

Good stuff!

A 200 grain WFN loaded to 1200 fps will go all the way through 11 gallon jugs of water.  Tested it myself.  Don't know how many more it would penetrate, eleven is all that would fit on my table..

I learned a new  way to use the word "sanguin" today!

exsanguination

[Rick R]

If by year 8 of the apocalypse I've used up all my jhp ammo and pried the wheel weights off every abandoned car in walking distance I'll probably be perfectly happy toting my Ruger 10mm revolver loaded with 200gr NOE bullets over home made fffg powder, lit by recycled primers with toy cap priming mix.

Until then I'll carry my SIG factory or Gold Dot handloads. 
.

[Bluebird5000]

The XTP in 10mm penetrates well. From the worst angles I would expect it to crush bone and penetrate well on a human so I would opt for the larger hole. A hardcast will still make a hole and would be nice if you have any wild hog/bear concerns.

Underwood's XTPs cost around $1/round not $2 though the copper stuff gets more expensive. I'm not saying $1 is cheap but in case you thought they were $2 I wanted you to know.

[Univibe]

Too much recoil.    If I carried 10mm for the street, I'd use FBI lite loads.  Does the same job.

[Rojo27]

Too much recoil.    If I carried 10mm for the street, I'd use FBI lite loads.  Does the same job.

Perfectly understandable and to each their own.  Carry on. 
Logic and history of FBI lite circles back inexorably to 40 S&W. 
So if that's the job I wanted, I'd just cut the corner and carry it.

Naturally of course, effective recoil management is subjective to the individual (skill level, training, practice) not objective. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvvHHc_aeUQ



 

[Kenk]

With a lot of practice and a heavier weight weapon, hot loads for carry are for sure manageable. Practice Practice Practices is key, like with anything 😊