VV N105 + 200g FMJ reloaders

[rattinox]

Noobian here, so this topic has probably been beaten into the ground by now........

My reloading goal with my Glock 20 was to create what Jeff Cooper and Whit Collins would have called the 10mm Auto equivalent to .45ACP Military Ball ammo.

What I finally decided was good for both me and my Glock was Vihta Vuori N105 and Hornady 200g FMJFP (FP=Flat Point).

I'd really like to get some feedback from those reloaders who have a reliable chronograph what powder charges and velocities you're getting with this powder/bullet combo.

My ancient Oehler was circa 1978 or so, and the skyscreens were squirrelly to get set with the proper light level, so I'm not sure if I can really trust my old data.

Thanks- your info would really help!

[The_Shadow]

Well what velocity for the 10mm 200 grain FMJFP are you wanting to get?

The Military Ball 45 is set as 230 grain FMJ @ 850 from a 5" bbl.
Loads that duplicated the military Ball ammo for 45 which was 368 ft lbs
Bullseye 5.0 grains
W231 5.7 grains
Unique 6.5 grains

There are some 45ACP loadings that exceed the military ball specs.

Now to get to the 10mm ammo that Jeff Cooper wanted and that velocity was only 1000 fps.
"Colonel John Dean "Jeff" Cooper, had the inspiration of a 40 caliber cartridge which would drive a 200 grain projectile @ 1000 feet per second which would translate into 444 foot pounds of energy. 

Mike Dixon was able to finalize external specifications; he also upped the velocity specification to 1150 feet per second, which exceeded Col. Cooper's numbers of 1000 feet per second and Dornaus wanted the numbers low for fear of reliability.

The tested velocity from NORMA was said to be 1260 feet per second which equates to 704 foot pounds of energy in April of 1983 with a 200 grain Jacketed Truncated Cone bullet with a 37,000 CUP (copper units of pressure) for a 10 shot average.

Here is the data for VV powders
200 FMJ/FP Hornady 1.256
N340 5.0 @ 876   5.7 @ 1014
3N37 5.9 @ 955   6.8 @ 1073
N350 5.3 @ 932   6.3 @ 1047
N105 7.7 @ 1066 8.6 @ 1155

[Spudmeister]

Well what velocity for the 10mm 200 grain FMJFP are you wanting to get?

The Military Ball 45 is set as 230 grain FMJ @ 850 from a 5" bbl.
Loads that duplicated the military Ball ammo for 45 which was 368 ft lbs
Bullseye 5.0 grains
W231 5.7 grains
Unique 6.5 grains

There are some 45ACP loadings that exceed the military ball specs.

Now to get to the 10mm ammo that Jeff Cooper wanted and that velocity was only 1000 fps.
"Colonel John Dean "Jeff" Cooper, had the inspiration of a 40 caliber cartridge which would drive a 200 grain projectile @ 1000 feet per second which would translate into 444 foot pounds of energy. 

Mike Dixon was able to finalize external specifications; he also upped the velocity specification to 1150 feet per second, which exceeded Col. Cooper's numbers of 1000 feet per second and Dornaus wanted the numbers low for fear of reliability.

The tested velocity from NORMA was said to be 1260 feet per second which equates to 704 foot pounds of energy in April of 1983 with a 200 grain Jacketed Truncated Cone bullet with a 37,000 CUP (copper units of pressure) for a 10 shot average.

Here is the data for VV powders
200 FMJ/FP Hornady 1.256
N340 5.0 @ 876   5.7 @ 1014
3N37 5.9 @ 955   6.8 @ 1073
N350 5.3 @ 932   6.3 @ 1047
N105 7.7 @ 1066 8.6 @ 1155

Wow!  Thanks for the history lesson.  I knew what Norma did but was totally unaware of what Jeff Cooper had it mind.  Frankly it makes a heck of a lot of sense.  I always wondered by Jeff would want a nuclear bomb for a fighting handgun.  My lighter load for the 200gr WFN bullet does 1,005 fps out of my OEM G29.  I will smile next time I shoot it.

As an aside, you may recall Elmer Keith spent decades trying to get his 44 Special load (235gr Keith bullet @ 1,200 fps) to be factory loaded.  Just like Norma, Remington gave him exactly what he did not want.  It was a  240gr soft lead bullet at 1,400 fps and it beat the tar out of the early guns.  It also made those guns profoundly harder to shoot well.

And I thought it was just my kids that don't listen. 

Again... many thanks for the history lesson.  Please share more as you feel it appropriate.

[rattinox]

I thank you, too! Many bits of info I never picked up way back in the early 80's when Cooper and Collins were developing the load.....

I got almost all my info from the tidbits Cooper gave out in Guns & Ammo, a mag I practically worshiped. My Mom would roll her eyes & groan whenever a new issue appeared in the mailbox 
My Dad, however, was exactly on the same wavelength as Cooper, having served in combat both in Korea and Vietnam- USMC. I suspect he secretly went directly to Cooper's Corner while I was asleep 

Sorry to go tangential like that!

My velocity goal was somewhere between 1000 and Norma's masochistic-and-unnecessary 1250-1300fps with 200g FMJ. I was happy with 1100 to 1150. All the oomph I'd ever need and then some.

I loved the Glock 20's large grip area, which although it's really a bit too big for my hands (I'm a Southpaw), really soaked up the recoil nicely, especially with the stick-on sand-surface grip panels. I believe in training on firearms, not whittling them down to make the wussies comfy. So I damned well learned to handle the recoil of 200g + 1150fps.

I knew from an engineering standpoint that 1911-style pistols in 10mm, even loaded low, would beat the piss out of the lockwork, and it did, even in tough grades of stainless alloy. So I never even considered a 1911 in Ten.

Sadly, though, the first Generation of Glock barrels had a major design flaw: a section of the chamber that was thin, and might give way with hot loads. And did! There was a reloading outfit in my area called Pony Express Reloaders, who not only sold gear and components, but also made ammo for certain police departments and MN Highway Patrol. This was the Era of "Oooh, the FBI's got 10mm Auto! We gotta get them too!"
There was a bulletin board near the entrance to the shop, and one day I came in for some .308 stuff or somesuch, and saw the board plastered with pix of blown chambers, and the casualties produced thereby. Scared the piss out of me  , so I ordered a Bar-Sto that same day! Naturally, Glock rejected all intimations of faulty engineering or safety issues, to save their Heinies from massive liability suits from the police depts and civilian reloaders. They must have had some clue of potential troubles, though, because the first issue instruction manuals-and all thereafter- expressly forbade handloads of any sort.

Anyway, my Glock 20 (and soon G40) of current specs will go with me to the grave 

[TonyRumore]

I use 10.0gr of N105 behind a 200gr XTP for 1220fps from my 6" Witness.  That's with a CCI300 standard primer.  If you use a mangum primer, you'll have to back that load off quite a bit and you won't get to 1220fps.

Tony

[The_Shadow]

Good evening Tony!  That's a step up from the VV manual but I have read of others taking the N105 higher than the manual.

The Original ammo as supplied to D&D for the Bren Ten was 200 gr FMJ @ 1200 and the 1260 fps was exceeding that mark and was quickly reduced.  The NORMA powder that was used back then was discontinued, so other powders needed to be pushed for performance vs. pressure.

I have run some potent stuff through my S&W 1006 over the years testing for the 1200 fps mark with a 200 grain JHP mostly with Blue Dot powder.  Making changes to the recoil system with extra power springs.  I have settled on the 200 JHP's being loaded to 1200 fps - 1240 fps for my 5" pistols with careful handloading.

Since then several new powders have made their way to market and others were discontinued or rebranded (like Winchester Action Pistol now known as Ramshot Silhouette). 

It is fairly easy to take the 200 JHP to 1240 fps from the 5" bbl and have seen 1300+ loadings which was pushed by companies like Swampfox Ammo...  He also had warnings about only using that ammo in fully supported chambered barrels!

Personally I haven't used the VV powders but have studied the work of others...It is a very clean burning powder.

[sqlbullet]

This is a bit tangential as my post isn't really about VV powders, but the thread seems about as much about the Cooper 10mm vs the Norma 10mm.

I think Cooper was onto something with the 40 G&A wildcat, which is effectively the same round as the 40 S&W.  But I think the 10mm is a better choice today and here is why.

The ballistics that Cooper wanted were for a full size fighting gun.  At the time there was very little to no concealed carry, and most people that could have a handgun when they needed it had the luxury of not needing it concealed.  A 5" barrel 40 S&W or 40 G&A is potent medicine indeed.

But what happens to that round when you drop it into a sub compact concealed carry gun?  You loose a good dose of velocity is what happens.  So much in fact that you can't really find 200 grain 40 S&W loads.  They just don't make sense at all.

But, the 10mm Auto still does just fine out of a 3-3.5" tube with a 200 grain bullet.  In fact, Ballistics by the Inch testing shows the Hornady 200 grain XTP is still over 1000 fps out of a 3" tube.  Let alone the 3.5" tube in most compact guns.

So, my Glock 29 gives me the exact ballistics that Cooper wanted in a tidy package that disappears comfortably under an un-tucked shirt, and the round in the pipe has 12 friends on deck in the magazine with a +2 extender.  And another 30 in the two fifteen round backup mags.

I get service pistol ballistics in a compact pistol package.  And the poly frame flex makes it really controllable.

And that is why I love the 10mm as a personal defense choice.

[RDub01]

Hello

I didn't do a lot with 200gr bullets, but here is what I have.

I found N-105 to be a good clean burning powder, however at max charges it is very compressed. 
You might try AA #9.  I got the most velocity and acceptable accuracy with it.

On the data sheet you can see the case expansion along with all the other pertinent data.
And a graph so you can see how each powder compared to each other.

Hope this helps

[The_Shadow]

Spungeman66 over at Glock Talk posted this

200 XTP
New Winchester Brass
Rem 2 1/2 Primer
COL 1.265"
~ 85F
Stock G29
The loads shown below have some more potential, because my max head expansion was not reached with any of these loads. The N105 is becoming compressed enough to start deforming the hollow point a little, so there really isn't much more case capacity left...

N105 Lo Hi ES Avg SD
10.1 1042 1110 18 1102 7
10.3 1104 1114 10 1109 3

https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/vihta-vuori-powder-data.203164/#post-2628567