In todays world

[RRMan03]

In todays world would you consider the 32-20,25-20,38-40,44-40 and others like these as wildcats. Reason I ask is I know you can load these much higher than the old factory specs if your gun can handle it thus your are creating a loasd that was not originally meant to exist. Does this make them wildcats or just odd calibers. I am learning with the help of a lot of the reloaders on the forum that you can get a lot more out of these old world calibers when you reload always remembering that your gun must be modern and ready to handle such loads.

[DenStinett]

I'd say niether
They are still very popular in the Cowboy Action World
A wildcat would be something like a .10 Hornet
or the 357-44 B&D

[RRMan03]

Thanks

[The_Shadow]

Yes those were from the days of years past, and like DenStinett mentioned the Cowboy action sportsmen and women actually seek out the real pistols and rifles chambered in these for playing and reenactments for period correct attire! 

While those with the newer remake guns can a do load to more modern performance levels because they can... 
Modern Guns and powders make it possible for these performance gains using the older cartridges!

[DM1906]

A "wildcat" is a new cartridge, based at least in part, off of a previous common commercially available cartridge.  A wildcat is no longer a wildcat once it becomes a common commercially available cartridge.  Examples of this are, .357 Sig, .270 Remington (et el), and .357 Remington Magnum.  All these began their life as a different, base cartridge (.40 S&W, .30-06 Springfield, and the .38 S&W Special, which was based on several previous cartridges).  The cartridges you listed, except for the .38-40 WCF were designed as they are, and never a wildcat.  The .38-40 was a wildcat, based on the .44-40 cartridge.  Other current cartridges, like the 9x25 Dillon, remains a wildcat, although it predates the .357 Sig and .40 S&W (1988).

[REDLINE]

Also, some of the ancients in the cartridge world have very thin brass cases by today's much higher pressure standard rounds.  No doubt some can be improved on with todays newer generation powders, but not by as much as many would hope.

[DM1906]

Also, some of the ancients in the cartridge world have very thin brass cases by today's much higher pressure standard rounds.  No doubt some can be improved on with todays newer generation powders, but not by as much as many would hope.

Excellent point.  You do need to watch the brass.  There are modern brass alternatives, for the modern alternative rounds.  Many major brass manufacturers know which rounds will see higher pressures than originally designed, and design the brass accordingly.  Just make sure that's what you get, if you need it.

I have some "original" Remington .38-40 brass that's probably 60+ years old.  I only use that for original "cowboy" loads.  High pressure loads get modern (Starline) brass, which is obviously more capable, just by looking at it.  Super-heavy loads, I use brass I make from .44 Mag brass.  No failures yet, even up to 40K, for either.  Original rated pressure (and current ANSI/SAAMI) for the .38-40 is 14K, and the .44-40 is 13K.  Both were originally rifle cartridges, later adapted to colt revolvers.  These high pressure rounds should NEVER be fired in a Colt, Colt clone, or most antique rifles.  Ruger (SBH frame, NOT Vaquero), 1892 Win, or modern replica rifles Only!

[sqlbullet]

The line of demarcation in absolute, at least in my mind, is if you have to custom order the dies, usually by including a drawing.  If they catalog the item then it has reached some degree of mainstream.

Certainly I would not consider these older cartridges "wildcats".

[REDLINE]

Good point sqlbullet.  Also, I don't really consider them wildcats if any time ever existed where they were even halfway popular.

[DM1906]

The term "wildcat" isn't affectionate.  It's a technical and legal definition.  Popularity isn't a deciding factor, in itself.  There are many wildcat cartridges that are more popular than some commercially defined cartridges.  Although 9x25D and .460R are currently more popular than .357 Max, they are still wildcats, while the .357 is not.  No commercially manufactured weapons have been produced for them, and ammo is still not available on the common market (boutique manufacturers don't count).  Before any common commercial firearm manufacturer develops a firearm, the cartridge must be certified and cataloged by not only the manufacturers, but the BATFE (among other gov. agencies, as well as international entities), and ANSI/SAAMI, among others.  Many current and past competition cartridges remain wildcats, never having anything but a non-manufactured weapon to fire them in.

[REDLINE]

I believe going through SAAMI is entirely optional.  I've never heard of any cartridge needing to be certified and cataloged by anyone.  Regarding BATFE, I'm not aware they do anything but take care of licensing for firearm/explosive/ammo businesses and do their best to simply uphold laws in their field, which of course would regulate what ammo and firearms are available in general within legal guideline laws.  No certifying and cataloging firearms and ammo that I've ever heard of.  I could be wrong.

[DM1906]

True, SAAMI is "voluntary", but there are no mfg's who would dream of marketing a cartridge prior to certification.  The BATFE must catalog a cartridge before it's really a cartridge.  No exceptions in the US.  It also has to be cataloged before it ever is considered for export (which is a process all in its own), cartridge or merely the design.  International arms treaties require it, going out or coming in.  Wildcats can't be exported or imported, under any circumstance.  The same applies to undocumented or uncertified firearms.

[REDLINE]

Good Points.  I wasn't thinking about International or exporting.