dumb 1911 questions... ;-p

[s0nspark]

Let me start by saying I am not that well versed with 1911s... The only ones I have had any trigger time with are my stepbrother's Colt series 80 and my stepdad's Kimber CDP II. I am planning to get a 10mm 1911 of some sort in the next year or so and have a few stupid questions.

First, full length guide rods: good, bad, annoying? I like the takedown of models with a standard barrel bushing but are there any real advantages to a full length guide rod, especially with 10mm?

Second, skeletonized triggers: why?? Aside from just not caring for how most of them look I wonder how much of an effect they really have on trigger pull.

Lastly, are there any features I should seek out or avoid with a 10mm 1911? Any parts I should stock up on to anticipate wear issues?

Thanks much!

[sqlbullet]

Full length guide rods.  Might want some popcorn and a comfortable chair!

The only real advantage I see to them is added weight near the muzzle.  None of my 1911's have them, and I tend to replace them with standard systems where I can.  I went actually to some length to get a standard guide rod in my partially complete CCO build.  It has a bull barrel and no bushing, so I had to make my own custom reverse plug that lacks a hole for a guide rod.

Skeletonized triggers solve a problem that can occur if the trigger pull is VERY light.  What can happen with a stock trigger this.  As the slide returns to battery at the end of the cycle the entire gun is jerked forward very slightly.  A part with more inertia than the resistance of the trigger bow and sear will cause the gun to fire again as it obeys Newtons laws and attempts to not change it's motion state.  Light trigger = less intertia = less chance of a nudge fire.

As a result of being used in early bullseye guns where the trigger pull was so light this was an issue, many lay users tend to think that the trigger being skelotonized somehow makes it better.  And typically triggers with an over-travel stop tend to have them.  Mine all have them, but it is incidental to getting an over-travel stop at a low price.

I am a big fan of flat bottom firing pin stops from EGW.  Get them from Brownells here. I like these in conjunction with a 25 lb main spring (aka hammer spring).  They eat up slide velocity without the downsides of a heavy recoil spring.

I don't care for ambi-safeties, especially on a carry gun. To easy to, in my experience, to nudge the weak side to an off-safe position.

I do suggest you get and know how to install and calibrate an extractor.

[harrygunner]

My gunsmith put a full length guide rod in my 10mm 1911. I left it there since it is a "one piece" rod. If it were a "two piece" rod I would have replaced it and fussed at the 'smith.

He said he wanted to minimize pressure on the bushing. I know a kink in the recoil spring will break a bushing. But, I don't have enough data to argue for or against them.

I agree with 'sqlbullet' and yet have a different opinion on ambi-safeties. I often train performing all tasks with one hand at a time. The "ambi" allows me to maintain my grip while releasing the slide lock when I'm doing everything with my left hand.

[DM1906]

Full length guide rods.  Might want some popcorn and a comfortable chair!

The only real advantage I see to them is added weight near the muzzle.  None of my 1911's have them, and I tend to replace them with standard systems where I can.  I went actually to some length to get a standard guide rod in my partially complete CCO build.  It has a bull barrel and no bushing, so I had to make my own custom reverse plug that lacks a hole for a guide rod.

Skeletonized triggers solve a problem that can occur if the trigger pull is VERY light.  What can happen with a stock trigger this.  As the slide returns to battery at the end of the cycle the entire gun is jerked forward very slightly.  A part with more inertia than the resistance of the trigger bow and sear will cause the gun to fire again as it obeys Newtons laws and attempts to not change it's motion state.  Light trigger = less intertia = less chance of a nudge fire.

As a result of being used in early bullseye guns where the trigger pull was so light this was an issue, many lay users tend to think that the trigger being skelotonized somehow makes it better.  And typically triggers with an over-travel stop tend to have them.  Mine all have them, but it is incidental to getting an over-travel stop at a low price.

I am a big fan of flat bottom firing pin stops from EGW.  Get them from Brownells here. I like these in conjunction with a 25 lb main spring (aka hammer spring).  They eat up slide velocity without the downsides of a heavy recoil spring.

I don't care for ambi-safeties, especially on a carry gun. To easy to, in my experience, to nudge the weak side to an off-safe position.

I do suggest you get and know how to install and calibrate an extractor.

All spot on, except the bold part.  "Nudge fires" are a myth.  You can't get your finger off the trigger fast enough to cause one.  Something else is wrong.  Inertia applied to the finger is a more likely suspect.  A heavier trigger pull will help a loose finger, but a lighter weight trigger won't do anything for it.  Unintentional double-taps are more psychological than any other possible cause.  A firm trigger pull and deliberate release/reset will always prevent that, short of a mechanical failure (weak sear, etc.).

[sqlbullet]

I have never had a nudge fire happen to me, so I can't confirm of deny the myth.

I do know physics, so I know it is sound application of Newton's laws.

And, here is what I found in 30 seconds on Google.

http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2006/01/1911-trigger-changes.html

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-92652.html

That second link is the real deal in my mind.  I have read lots of posts by lots of guys on the internet about the 1911.  I don't think I have ever encountered anyone more knowledgeable about the 1911 than 1911tuner at the high road (and a couple other forums that are more 1911 specific).   

No offense DM1906.  You may well be right.  But, based on my previous experiences that I can verify, 1911tuner has a huge win column when it comes to good info on what a 1911 will and won't do.  He says it can happen and I believe him.

But, you gotta take note, even he says it is rare, only occurs in guns where "the hammer hooks get short and the
sear and mainsprings get swapped out and tweaked in the quest of that 3-pound hair trigger".  And then it is usually caught by the half-cock notch.  It is NOT an issue for a stock gun in proper working order.

[DM1906]

I don't disagree, necessarily, but the physics don't line up.  If you have a finger that operates faster than the action during firing, it's possible.  Either you're faster than anyone else shooting, or the action is slower than anyone else's.  The mass of the trigger and Newton's 3rd law may apply, in that case.  Problem is, if you fire a round, you can't intentionally reset the trigger DURING recoil.  Something else is wrong, as you listed.  The mass of the trigger, in order to be affected by recoil, would have to be reset, meaning, finger off the trigger after firing, before the slide starts forward.  The recoil/cycling event is long gone by that time.  If it were possible, successful race gun shooters would see dead hammers all the time.  It's much more likely the recoil inertia event is applied to the trigger finger, and not the trigger itself (poor shooting practice), in which case a too-light trigger pull may be a contributing factor.  THIS, I've seen dozens of times, if not hundreds (mostly semi-auto and single-trigger double barrel shotguns).  If a replacement trigger is "fixing" the problem, something else is being "fixed", and the trigger mass gets the blame.  It's a diagnostic process of convenience, not solution.

There are a bunch of high-speed videos of pistol firings on Youtube.  You only have to see one to know a person can't outrun the cycling event with their finger, intentionally.  Also, look up the "Slide-Fire" stock for the black rifles.  The same principal applies that allows them to fire faster than a person can pull the trigger (like full-auto).

[sqlbullet]

My description is lacking.  In the first link they describe it better.  Chambering a round.  Fingers are completely clear from the trigger guard, slide is released and that pulls the gun forward.  Guns with light trigger pulls and heavy triggers follow.  If the half-cock doesn't catch it, they fire.

[DM1906]

My description is lacking.  In the first link they describe it better.  Chambering a round.  Fingers are completely clear from the trigger guard, slide is released and that pulls the gun forward.  Guns with light trigger pulls and heavy triggers follow.  If the half-cock doesn't catch it, they fire.

A gun that does that is broken, and needs to be repaired.  The trigger mass isn't the problem.  I hate to sound argumentative, but it is what it is.  I've been shooting 1911's since my age was single digits, have owned several since, and I've fired a few real beauties (negatively speaking).  Any pistol that does that is broken.

Ironically, I have a Winchester 1911 12 ga. that does that.  If the safety isn't engaged when the first round is chambered, it'll fire about half the time.  It's been retired to only skeet, and no one handles it (loaded) but me.  No parts available for repair, and it isn't worth having parts made.

[sqlbullet]

I am not arguing

I am just providing the reasoning behind why skeleton triggers came about.  I agree that any gun that discharges when chambering a round needs removed from service and seen to by a good gunsmith.

I will let you take the issue up with 1911tuner at m1911.org as it is his opinion that I am echoing (probably poorly).

For my guns it boils down to this.  I wanted over-travel adjustment and the best options with that feature were skeletonized.

[DM1906]

I prefer discussion to argument, but it doesn't always come out that way.  Some things I'm a little anal about, mostly related to troubleshooting and the diagnostic process, especially with issues that can be dangerous or deadly.  I'll leave it at that.  Thanks for the discussion.

[gandog56]

Full length guide rods.  Might want some popcorn and a comfortable chair!

The only real advantage I see to them is added weight near the muzzle.  None of my 1911's have them, and I tend to replace them with standard systems where I can.  I went actually to some length to get a standard guide rod in my partially complete CCO build.  It has a bull barrel and no bushing, so I had to make my own custom reverse plug that lacks a hole for a guide rod.

Skeletonized triggers solve a problem that can occur if the trigger pull is VERY light.  What can happen with a stock trigger this.  As the slide returns to battery at the end of the cycle the entire gun is jerked forward very slightly.  A part with more inertia than the resistance of the trigger bow and sear will cause the gun to fire again as it obeys Newtons laws and attempts to not change it's motion state.  Light trigger = less intertia = less chance of a nudge fire.

As a result of being used in early bullseye guns where the trigger pull was so light this was an issue, many lay users tend to think that the trigger being skelotonized somehow makes it better.  And typically triggers with an over-travel stop tend to have them.  Mine all have them, but it is incidental to getting an over-travel stop at a low price.

I am a big fan of flat bottom firing pin stops from EGW.  Get them from Brownells here. I like these in conjunction with a 25 lb main spring (aka hammer spring).  They eat up slide velocity without the downsides of a heavy recoil spring.

I don't care for ambi-safeties, especially on a carry gun. To easy to, in my experience, to nudge the weak side to an off-safe position.

I do suggest you get and know how to install and calibrate an extractor.

I understand what you were saying about skeltonized triggers. But that makes me wonder about skeltonized HAMMERS! None of my 3 1911's has an ambidextrous safety. My latest 10mm 1911, came equipped with a 20 pound spring, but they also included a couple of heavier ones if you wanted to put those in. I say the lightest springs that work are good for me.

[sqlbullet]

The skelontized hammers, being lighter, fall faster reducing lock time.

Again, for my needs I can't tell the difference, but I guess guys like Rob Leatham can.

[evanica]

full length guide rods in all 5 of my 1911's, common sense tells me that it keeps the spring in line and compresses equally. JMO

[gandog56]

I have three 1911"s, only one has the traditional guides. Both my newer ones use the full length guide rod. The guide rods seems to cause me no extra troubles, so I don't worry about which system is used.