Which powder for Hornady XTP 180 gr and Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator 140 gr

[Juergen]

Hello !

I am living in Germany and I can only buy the powder you can see in that list:
https://www.pulver-mueller.de/upload/download/katalog/Bestellliste_leer.pdf.

I tried Rottweil P 806 but the result has been poor with the bullets mentioned in the subject.

Important for me is that the maximum pressure is 2300 bar = 33358 psi because C.I.P. allows only 2300 bar. And C.I.P. is mandatory in Germany.

The gun is a Glock 41 with a 6 inch barrel 10 mm Auto.

Thank you for any help !

Juergen

[Kenk]

G41 in 10mm? Is that a .45 auto with a 10 conversion barrel

[Juergen]

Exactly. The barrel is from IGB Austria.

To be a little more precise and more detailed:

The gun is a Glock 41 Gen 4 MOS caliber .45 auto (5.3"). The conversion barrel is a 10mm Auto (6") from IGB Austria.

If you have a hunting licence in Germany it is only allowed to have two handguns. But you may have some conversion barrels for each handgun on condition that the conversion barrels have a smaller caliber than the original barrel. That is the reason why I have a Glock 41 with a 10 mm Auto barrel.

I want to use the 10 mm Auto for killing wounded animals and for self protection. We have no polar bears and grizzlies in Germany but big boars.

The bullets I want to use are

• Hornady XTP 180 gr #40040 and
• Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator 140 gr

My cases are from Starline, primers are Fiocchi LP.

I tried the powder Rottweil P 806 but the result was poor.
There are two big problems: the spreading of velocity and pressure is to big and the load of the powder is to high.

I am looking for a powder with maximum bullet speed at 2300 bar = 33,358 psi.
The attached list https://www.pulver-mueller.de/upload/download/katalog/Bestellliste_leer.pdf shows the available powders.

I know that in german forums people use Vihtavuori N350,  N105, 3N37, Hodgdon Longshot, Reload Swiss RS20, RS24, Lovex D037.2.

But I don't know which are the best powders for the two bullets above.

Perhaps you can help me. Thank you very much for any help !

Juergen

[Graybeard]

First off, greetings and Merry Christmas.

For the 180gr XTP, Longshot should do what you're looking for out of a 6" barrel with no problems. Particularly considering your pressure limitations.

Max pressure for 10mm here is 37,500psi. Factory ammo typically isn't loaded that high, but many of us have gone that far and a little beyond with careful workups and the right firearm.

I have no experience with the Lehigh 140s, so hopefully someone else will chime in.

[The_Shadow]

Juergen, This is what we have seen in the Underwood ammo

Hornady 180 grain using LOVEX D037.1
https://www.10mm-firearms.com/index.php?topic=3598.msg38891#msg38891

140gr Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator
https://www.10mm-firearms.com/index.php?topic=3405.msg37134#msg37134

[Juergen]

Thank you and Merry Christmas to all of you!

It seems that Lovex D037.1 and Hodgdon Longshot have the same burn rate.

I will try one of them!

Thanks

Juergen

[Juergen]

Does anyone have an idea why my rounds with Rottweil P 806 are so bad?

Please look at these images:

Hornady XTP


Xtreme Penetrator


The rounds has been fabricated very precisely. My scale can weigh 0.1 mg = 0.0015 grain.
All rounds are equal.

Why are the results so different?

Is it possible that it is a consequence of overloading ?
The problem was that the P 806 had 20 % more volume than advertised in QuickLoad software.
So I put more powder into the cases as planned.

[The_Shadow]

Does anyone have an idea why my rounds with Rottweil P 806 are so bad?

Please look at these images:

Hornady XTP


Xtreme Penetrator



The rounds has been fabricated very precisely. My scale can weigh 0.1 mg = 0.0015 grain.
All rounds are equal.

Why are the results so different?

Is it possible that it is a consequence of overloading ?
The problem was that the P 806 had 20 % more volume than advertised in QuickLoad software.
So I put more powder into the cases as planned.

Looks to be inconsistent looking at the numbers, Recoil spring or system might be suspect or the actual bullet to case fit tension.
Hornady XTP 180 grain is between 1128.61 fps & 1377.95 fps

Xtreme Penetrator 140 grain is between 1072.83 fps & 1443.57 fps

[The_Shadow]

Juergen would you post a picture of the Rottweil P 806 powder in a scale pan.  I like to study these actual powders out there.  We don't have those powders here

Only Rottweil Powder picture I have in my files is Rottweil_P804 & Rottweil_P805 and Rottweil_30_carbine powder.

Rottweil_P804


Rottweil_P805


Rottweil 30carbine ??

[Juergen]

Looks to be inconsistent looking at the numbers, Recoil spring or system might be suspect or the actual bullet to case fit tension.

To avoid any misunderstanding.

The two documents are from an institute which is investigating the rounds with a test barrel to see if there are safe or not.
It is not likely that they did a mistake (but I can ask them if it is possible).

I can make some pictures from the powder when I am back at home.

[The_Shadow]

Juergen thanks for the clarification on the documents.  I thought you were documenting your own test results.

[Juergen]

DEVA (https://www.deva-institut.de/) is a registered association. They are measuring velocity and pressure every day. It is not likely that they made a mistake.

So I have to search for the mistake at my rounds.

I have two ideas:

• The overfill of 117% (Xtreme Penetrator) or 107% (XTP) is not good
• The length of the rounds had been changed during the shipping

[Graybeard]

The extreme range of velocities is very strange, particularly since the lower velocities seem very low for a load over 100% charge. The higher velocities make sense for a load over 100%. Since I am unfamiliar with the powder you are using I can only suggest that full ignition wasn't happening, resulting in the lower velocities. Does that powder have a reputation for being difficult to ignite?

Lovex powder isn't as readily available in the USA as Longshot. I would suggest giving that a try as most of us have experience with Longshot and can offer better advice about it. It is also one of the most common powders in use here when one is seeking velocity.

[Juergen]

Since I am unfamiliar with the powder you are using I can only suggest that full ignition wasn't happening, resulting in the lower velocities.

I spoke to DEVA today about the measurements. They told me some possible reasons for the problems:

• no full ignition
• damaged cases
• to small diameter of bullet
• some oil in the test barrel (first shot)

They told me if the bullet is to loose in the case it moves before it should move and the result may be uncomplete ignition.

In a german forum people say that they needed magnum primers for P806 and that they have more power with magnum primers and a reduced load. Is it possible that there is a problem with the Fiocchi LP primers?

I will try again with P806 and Hodgdon Longshot and I will check the diameters and I will make a sufficient crimp with the LEE Factory Crimp Die.

[Graybeard]

I would agree with the suggestions from DEVA. Damage could have occurred during shipping, but I would expect them to have noticed that and noted it.

Too small a diameter of bullet you can verify yourself before loading them. In decades of loading 180gr XTPs, I've never had any that were out of specifications. I usually measure a few from each box of any brand before loading them. I usually weigh them, as well.

Crimp is a possibility, but typically not as important as in other calibers such as .357 or .44magnum. Much slower powders like H110 and 2400 will not burn well without a good crimp. If P806 has a similar burn rate the combination of crimp and standard primers could yield the strange results.

I've never used Fiocchi primers, so I can't offer any first hand advice about them. I have had some problems with Fiocchi factory ammo using large pistol primers not firing on the first strike, or not firing at all. That was a one time issue and I wouldn't say it's enough to condemn Fiocchi as a maker of poor quality products.

My suggestion would be start with 8.2gr of Longshot and work up in .2gr increments using the 180gr XTP. I would stop at 9.4gr. Some here have gone a little higher, to 9.6gr, if I remember correctly. Check for overpressure signs as you go up.

Longshot does not seem to be a difficult powder to ignite with standard large pistol primers. If you don't get the desired results with Longshot, I would switch to a different brand of primers, or a different lot of the fiocchi primers.

Best of luck with this. Please let us know your results.