Problems with Redding dies...

[daved20319]

Actually, I'm not so sure it's just the dies, I'm also using new brass.  Anyway, details of where I am and how I got here.  I'm new to loading the 10mm, although not to loading in general.  I know enough to know that I don't know much, but I can generally produce safe, reliable, and accurate ammo, both pistol and rifle.

So to date, I've loaded 40 10mm rounds, the first 30 with once fired Federal small primer brass, all have been 180 gr. XTP's and Blue Dot powder.  The rounds loaded in Federal brass were all fine, other than not reaching the velocity I was after, all functioned as they should, and the bullets came out of the seating die with no problems.

So last night I decided to load up some of the brand new Starline brass I just got in.  Followed my usual procedure, resize, flare/bell, prime, charge, seat.  All went fine until I started seating the bullets.  They seemed to need quite a bit more force than usual, and the bullets were getting deformed by the seating plug, not just a ring, but actually squished a little bit.  I was also struggling with getting a consistent seating depth.  I tried increasing the bell, but the seating die just closed it up, even when adjusted pretty far out.

So in the process of writing this, something just occured to me.  I use carbide dies, so the cases were un-lubed.  The Federal brass wasn't lubed either, but I'd cleaned and polished them with my wet tumbler, pins, and a small amount of LemiShine, Dawn, and car wash/wax.  The Starline is straight out of the box, as I received it.  Could that little bit of wax left behind be the difference?  Will try lubing some cases and see if that makes a difference, in the meantime, I'd appreciate any other ideas or suggestions ya'll might have.  Later.

Dave

[sqlbullet]

I can't think of a good explanation for this other than the cases fitting tighter.  I took some measurements of the brass I had on hand.  I grabbed a handful of fired/sized brass and came up with 5 Federal (FC), 5 Winchester, and 5 starline. I grabbed 5 new/old stock starline from about 10 years ago.

A 180 XTP measures .625" long on my calipers, meaning .375" inside the case at a COAL of 1.250".  So, I scribbed and measured the cases at .375" below the case mouth, and at .187" below the case mouth.  I also measured the depth at which the case wall began to get larger.

Resuts:

------- Brand--------	|----0.187"----	|----.375----	|DoE
Federal	|0.0115"	|0.0115"	|0.473"
Winchester	|0.0110"	|0.0110"	|0.400"
Starline fired	|0.0110"	|0.0110"	|0.405"
Starline new	|0.0115"	|0.0112"	|0.0405"

This seems to suggest that for seating depths larger than 0.400" you would encounter resistance in Winchester and Starline when you would not in Federal.  For a 180 grain XTP this would correlate to a COAL of 1.210" or less, which would be very short for an XTP.

This seems unlikely that you would be seating that deep, but dimensionally, that is where you would start to see a difference.

The other factor I could see being at play here is case capacity.  Since the Federal case has thinner walls further down, I would expect the case volume to be a bit higher.  I have encountered deformed noses when seating over compressed loads, and max loads of Blue Dot with a 180 XPT are indeed compressed.  Small variances in case capacity from one mfg to another could make this difference.  Further, Alliant owns Federal, so it is likely the 11.0c charge was worked up using Federal brass. 

I would bet on slightly less case capacity in the starline brass combined with a compressed charge.

[The_Shadow]

daved20319, Here is what I do to keep that issue from happening...Redding makes a die spacer set.  The Kit contains a 1/8" / 0.125"  a 0.135" and a partial crimp if I recall was 0.062"
Kit Contains:

No-Crimp or partial resizing spacer (.062)
44 Special/44 Magnum spacer (.125)
38 Special/357 Magnum spacer (.135)

I use the 1/8" the most for many operations wit various cartridges.
When seating the brass can encounter the upper area of the die where it starts to close the  casing inward while seating the bullets.  Therefore I place a 1/8" spacer under the die's locking ring to raise the die up while seating bullets fully to the proper COAL.  Try this you will see great results!
After all bullets are seated I remove the spacer back off the seater plug and crimp only to finish the rounds!

Shop for your best price or availability:
https://www.redding-reloading.com/online-catalog/98-die-spacer-kit
https://www.brownells.com/reloading/reloading-dies/replacement-parts-upgrades/die-spacer-kit-prod33096.aspx
https://www.ebay.com/p/11012077363

this is the 1/8" or 0.125 spacers show
10mm / 40S&W /357Sig / 9x25 Dillon

10mm / 40S&W / 9mm

[daved20319]

Thanks, guys, some thoughtful responses that are much appreciated.  Sql, you almost had me at case capacity and compressed charges, even though I'm not at max.  But then I remembered I was getting the same results with NO powder or primer.  As mentioned in my OP, I went back and tried lubing some cases, didn't make a difference, I was still getting fairly significant bullet deformation.  And BTW, my target COAL is 1.26" per my Hornady load data.

Shadow, just Dave will do  .  The spacers are an interesting idea, but even though I'm loading on a single stage press (Rockchucker), I'm using the Hornady LNL bushings, so adding those spacers would pretty much eliminate any advantage of using the bushings.  That said, you did get me thinking about my seating/crimping die, insofar as it seems to want to start crimping as soon as the case starts into the die.

So, weird situations sometimes call for weird, creative solutions, and this one's a doozy  .  As the 10mm replaced my .45 ACP, I still have a Redding die set for .45.  The seating plug for the .45 hits much lower on the bullet ogive of the 10mm, in fact, if it was much lower, I'd be running into the case mouth.  But as it is, I'm getting NO bullet deformation.  And, of course, the .45 die itself doesn't touch the bell/flare of the 10mm case, so ALL it's doing is seating the bullet.  From there, I pulled the seater plug from my 10mm die and am using it just for crimping.  I've got a Lee FCD on the way, but for now, I have a system that meets my needs and expectations, now all I need to do is find the time to get to the range and see if it's all working  .

Again, I appreciate your time, guys, and will let you know how it goes once I get to the range.  Later.

Dave