Harold Fish story

[Kenk]

Fascinating article regarding the Harold Fish story. In 2004 Harold Fish produced a 10mm pistol from his backpack, and fired  in self defense. Apparently the prosecuting attorney thought his weapon and ammo selection were to powerful for that use, and off to jail he went...Crazy Stuff

https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Pages/casedetail.aspx?caseid=4266

[sqlbullet]

The Fish case changed self-defense practice for years.  Some instruction suggested abandoning hollow point ammunition entirely, while more "sane" suggestions included matching your gun and ammo to that used by your local or state law enforcement agencies.

However, it should be noted that the Harold Fish conviction was overturned on appellate review due to the judge failing to give proper instruction to the jury, and the judge preventing admission to evidence the decedents past history of irrational, violent behavior.

There are other important lessons to learn from the Harold Fish case.

1.  Get good insurance that will cover legal costs associated with the defense of your actions.  Despite eventually winning his case, Harold Fish spent several years in prison and died in very deep debt.  One of the big challenges with his defense was a serious lack of credible expert witnesses to rebut the prosecutions more ludicrous claims.  I have to wonder if part of the reason for the lack of good professional witnesses was ability to pay.  You don't want to by trying to reduce costs when you are defending your life or freedom.

2. Understand the use of force laws in any jurisdiction where you carry very clearly.  Many states are now constitutional carry states that do not require a class or permit to carry, and many states don't include a class.  While I support these states in recognizing our inherent rights, I strongly suggest people seek out and take classes about personal defense, lethal and non-lethal force and firearms safety.  Such a class will teach the elements required for a self-defense claim.  Knowing those elements can help a person correctly frame statements of fact about the incident to clearly communicate to why an action met the requirements of defense.

3.  Shut up and call your lawyer.  First call should be to 911.  In a perfect world the call to the authorities will be BEFORE you have to act in self-defense, but if not, it should be immediate.  Next call should be to your lawyer.  If you carry, are reading this and are thinking "How would I find a lawyer in this situation?" the answer is you don't.  You find him right now.  Then you will already know his name and number when you need him.  Might cost you a couple hundred dollars now, but money well spent.

Harold Fish got a raw deal.  But part of that raw deal can be wisdom for us.

[Kenk]

Absolutely, I carry USCCA's gold membership, at $25.00 per month it's kind of expensive in my mind, but makes me feel better

[Kenk]

I talked with our local small town sheriff about this a couple months back, and he said the same thing , load up your G17 with some Ranger T, HST, or Gold Dots and things will likely go better than with that cannon you have on your hip, Lol, super nice guy. Then proceeded to tell me he carries a G29 when he's off duty 😂

[4949shooter]

I asked Mas Ayoob about this case a while back over on another forum. He said that Harold Fish had a  weak defense. A more skillful attorney would have gotten him off of these charges.

Still, it's good to know the laws in the state you are currently in, and make the most educated choice in your carry selection.

[Kenk]

A true fact 😊

[Kenk]

Unfortunately I believe many (not necessarily on this forum) take carrying a weapon to lightly, as it is a huge responsibility to be sure

[Graybeard]

I followed this case closely for years. The judge was terrible, the prosecutor was trying to make a name for himself, and Fish had a lackluster lawyer to say the least. The family of Kuenzli pushed for prosecution, lied about his mental state, and the judge wouldn't allow an army of former coworkers and acquaintances to testify to the contrary. It was a travesty, but it illustrated what what can happen with a confluence of bottom feeders involved in the legal system: judge, prosecutor, sheriff.

[Kenk]

Just goes to show what can happen if things go south

[Sneed]

3.  Shut up and call your lawyer.  First call should be to 911.  In a perfect world the call to the authorities will be BEFORE you have to act in self-defense, but if not, it should be immediate.  Next call should be to your lawyer.  If you carry, are reading this and are thinking "How would I find a lawyer in this situation?" the answer is you don't.  You find him right now.  Then you will already know his name and number when you need him.  Might cost you a couple hundred dollars now, but money well spent.

I'm a lawyer and can add that you would be looking for a criminal defense lawyer who is familiar with gun laws and NOT one who believes gun free zones are cool and effective. One who shares your beliefs regarding 2A issues is likely to be far more interested in your case than one who would take the case because you're paying but who could care less about the underlying issues and there are plenty of criminal defense lawyers of that nature. You need to ask questions and pay attention to the answers. Look at the lawyer's office. What does he have on the walls. Are there hunting photos, mounted trophies and a GOA membership certificate or a bunch of trendy slogans and photos of the local dim politician he supports?

[Kenk]

Great point, Thanks Sneed!