Hello all,

I've been doing a lot of reading here and elsewhere about different 10mm loads for hunting. I am somewhat new to firearms, so while I think I understand the basics of penetration, expansion, energy, etc. I still think there are some finer details I might be missing.

I have a 10mm PCC (pistol caliber carbine, 16.25" barrel) on the way, which will be for hunting, home defense, and SHTF scenarios (so realistically, just hunting and range fun). I think I would like to take a whitetail deer with it, and based on my reading, 10mm is certainly capable even with a handgun. I am a novice hunter and though I understand shot placement with regard to vitals, I think I am struggling with the proper cartridge to use with the PCC.

Most people talk about overexpansion and subpar penetration with 10mm when you run a hollow point faster than intended. As much as the expansion could help, a lack of sufficient penetration might be a hindrance, and you don't want jacket separation(?) or fragmentation (at least for hunting). With the increased muzzle velocity of the round in a longer (16") barrel, it seems that it might be too easy to choose a round that looks good on paper (in terms of energy) but might overexpand compared to use in a handgun.

For comparison, I've been looking at Underwood's 115gr Xtreme Defender, 140gr Xtreme Penetrator, 155gr XTP, 180gr XTP, and 200gr hard cast loads. Now, from my understanding, hard cast is not legal to hunt with here, and I must use an expanding or soft tipped bullet. Still, I have the 200gr hard casts for my P220 sidearm for protection out in the bush, and I thought it would be nice to see how they perform in the PCC.

Assuming a ~200fps increase across the board, going from a 4" barrel to 16", the velocities look like this:

115gr: 1900fps
140gr: 1700fps
155gr: 1700fps
180gr: 1500fps
200gr: 1450fps

Ultimately I'd like the best blend of bullet drop, penetration, and expansion. For range, you want velocity, but the high velocity will cause overexpansion, so I don't want to go too high, but I still want good long range performance, which makes it seem like slow heavy bullets are out (even if they will penetrate better). Based on my reading, most people seem to favor heavier bullets. Is this because they're taking closer shots, due to using pistols, though? Is 180gr probably the sweet spot for the longer barrel configuration (assuming long barrels favor heavy bullets) even though I'm sacrificing range?

I suppose my question really is, what are some optimal weight+velocity combinations for when the bullet actually strikes the animal? It would seem even a 180gr bullet at 1500fps would overexpand, but once it's lost sufficient velocity, it should have an optimal blend of penetration and expansion... but what ultimately determines that? Is using a 155gr bullet asking for overexpansion at anything closer than 75yd?

I apologize for writing a novel here but I wanted to make sure I got my point across. If you got this far, thanks for reading, and I appreciate any advice you can give!

You might want to entertain a 155 or 140 grain Solid copper HP like Barnes bullets...

Quote from: The_Shadow on August 17 2021 08:13:32 PM MDT
You might want to entertain a 155 or 140 grain Solid copper HP like Barnes bullets...

I read about the Barnes TAC-XP rounds being used by a guy named Razor Dobbs... seems there's some controversy around him for sure. But, I can't really argue with the results.

Since I'm not yet into self loading, I need to stick to something I can readily purchase. Is there anyone loading the Barnes HP bullets at high velocities besides Buffalo Bore? I'd be willing to try it, but it is quite expensive (the Underwood XTP loads are half the price!).

Thank you!

Edit: I completely glossed over the fact that I can't legally use solid bullets like the Lehigh or Barnes for hunting, so those are out, at least for hunting in my home state. After looking at ballistics more, a 50yd zero using the 155gr XTP gives me 1-2 inches of drop from 0-100yds, so I don't need to worry about holdover at those distances. Sure, at 100yds the 155gr bullet will only be going ~1250fps, but that's still around 500 ft-lb of energy. I think I would get a decent blend of expansion and penetration at that range. At 50yds (a much more conventional distance) I'm looking at closer to the stock rated velocity from a ~4" barrel, around 1400-1450fps, with ~700 ft-lbs of force. That looks like ideal conditions for JHP expansion and penetration as well. So I guess... did I completely overthink this? Wouldn't be the first time... It's not rocket science but it's not trivial either.

Hey alostfrontier,
I would suggest taking a closer look at Underwood, as their prices aren?t horrible, and they make some pretty impressive ammo

Ken

Quote from: Kenk on August 17 2021 10:31:25 PM MDT
Hey alostfrontier,
I would suggest taking a closer look at Underwood, as their prices aren?t horrible, and they make some pretty impressive ammo

Ken

Thanks Ken -- all of the rounds I listed before are Underwood. To be honest, I haven't even given much consideration to any other brands, as I have enjoyed their rounds in my handguns and don't see many true competitors if you want hot loads (basically just Buffalo Bore).

Hello alostfrontier and welcome to the forum.

I've run across similar issues with lever action PCC's in 357/44mag/45Colt in the past.  Light weight, stupid fast bullets, look awesome on paper but rarely work well on game.
From my experience, the heavier bullets work better with the LBT type lead flat points working the best.

What state are you in?  Here in Pa, the game laws were written in the 1920's for rifles with two bullet choices, FMJ Military Ball and soft point hunting bullets.  They didn't take into account all the new bullet technology.  Since the 1980's, every game warden I've spoken to say, "as long as your not using pointy FMJ like green tip 5.56, they don't care"  any lead bullet is considered expanding and even the Lehigh's are ok.  Considering they're made in Lehigh Pa, I guess that's not surprising.

If I were forced to use a 10mm JHP in a PCC I would consider the 200gr or 180gr XTP.  With these bullets, a hit at 20 yards won't be too far above their working limit and even out at 200 yards, your not below it either.  Sighted in 2" high at 50 yards, You should be on at 100 yards and only about 6-7" low at 150.  With a bit of practice, I'll bet you might even get confident enough for 200 yards.

Jeff

Quote from: fltbed on August 19 2021 02:18:47 PM MDT
If I were forced to use a 10mm JHP in a PCC I would consider the 200gr or 180gr XTP.  With these bullets, a hit at 20 yards won't be too far above their working limit and even out at 200 yards, your not below it either.  Sighted in 2" high at 50 yards, You should be on at 100 yards and only about 6-7" low at 150.  With a bit of practice, I'll bet you might even get confident enough for 200 yards.

Thank you Jeff! What is the primary reason you'd want the heavier bullets? They go subsonic at shorter ranges and don't deliver any more energy at a given range than the 155gr XTP. At 50+ yards both would seem fine in terms of expansion and penetration (just based on 50yd velocity compared to muzzle velocity). What do the heavier bullets do better? Is it penetration because they are heavier? Or something else?

It seems with a 50yd zero, according to Shooterscalculator, I wouldn't have any high shots, just low shots, so I'd never have to worry about a hold"under", just holdover. A 25yd zero looks for dead on hits at 25yds and 100-120yds (depending on the bullet), but everything between 25yd-100yd would be 1-2 inches high (not a huge deal but it is something to compensate for). I feel like you'd prefer to have less guessing, i.e. know you're always going to shoot low or always going to shoot high (for your intended ranges). I haven't done a lot of long range shooting though, so maybe there's a different way to think about it.

Thanks again!

Quote from: alostfrontier on August 19 2021 02:54:00 PM MDT
Thank you Jeff! What is the primary reason you'd want the heavier bullets?

One word...Penetration.
Pistol calibers don't have the advantage of hydrostatic shock like rifle bullets traveling twice as fast.  To drop a deer quickly, you have to rely on blood loss and breaking bones.  Since blood leaks out faster from a exit wound than an entrance wound, you defiantly want pass through. (this is where the cast flat points really shine.  they just punch a hole clean through like a drill bit.  It's like having two exit holes and blood loss happens quicker)

  Just like "their's no replacement for displacement", Mass trumps velocity.
Yes, light weight bullets start out faster but for the first 25-50 yards your pushing them way above their working limits.  They're more likely to break apart and not penetrate. Light weight bullets also lose velocity/energy quicker.
The general rule of thumb for handgun hunting is you want 500 fp of energy at bulet impact.  Run a comparison through your ballistic calculator between the 155 and the 200 gr XTP.   Even though the 155 starts out faster, the 200gr maintains that 500fp minimum for almost twice the distance because of it's higher ballistic coefficient and sectional density.

Quote from: alostfrontier on August 19 2021 02:54:00 PM MDT
It seems with a 50yd zero, according to Shooterscalculator, I wouldn't have any high shots, just low shots, so I'd never have to worry about a hold"under", just holdover.

That's just preference.  If I sight my rifle in at 100 yards, I can aim dead center on the vitals and my bullet will never be higher or lower than 2" out to 125 yards.  That puts is still in the boiler room and I can just focus on aiming dead on.  with modern BDC and MRAD/MIL-DOT scopes it easier to figure out hold overs but I always just put a compact 4X on my PCC hunting rifles with a standard duplex retical.  It's just easier for me to remember, "aim for the brown".

Hope this helps.

Jeff

Quote from: fltbed on August 20 2021 12:01:45 PM MDT

Quote from: alostfrontier on August 19 2021 02:54:00 PM MDT
Thank you Jeff! What is the primary reason you'd want the heavier bullets?

One word...Penetration.
Pistol calibers don't have the advantage of hydrostatic shock like rifle bullets traveling twice as fast.  To drop a deer quickly, you have to rely on blood loss and breaking bones.  Since blood leaks out faster from a exit wound than an entrance wound, you defiantly want pass through. (this is where the cast flat points really shine.  they just punch a hole clean through like a drill bit.  It's like having two exit holes and blood loss happens quicker)

  Just like "their's no replacement for displacement", Mass trumps velocity.
Yes, light weight bullets start out faster but for the first 25-50 yards your pushing them way above their working limits.  They're more likely to break apart and not penetrate. Light weight bullets also lose velocity/energy quicker.
The general rule of thumb for handgun hunting is you want 500 fp of energy at bulet impact.  Run a comparison through your ballistic calculator between the 155 and the 200 gr XTP.   Even though the 155 starts out faster, the 200gr maintains that 500fp minimum for almost twice the distance because of it's higher ballistic coefficient and sectional density.

Quote from: alostfrontier on August 19 2021 02:54:00 PM MDT
It seems with a 50yd zero, according to Shooterscalculator, I wouldn't have any high shots, just low shots, so I'd never have to worry about a hold"under", just holdover.

That's just preference.  If I sight my rifle in at 100 yards, I can aim dead center on the vitals and my bullet will never be higher or lower than 2" out to 125 yards.  That puts is still in the boiler room and I can just focus on aiming dead on.  with modern BDC and MRAD/MIL-DOT scopes it easier to figure out hold overs but I always just put a compact 4X on my PCC hunting rifles with a standard duplex retical.  It's just easier for me to remember, "aim for the brown".

Hope this helps.

Jeff

Thanks very much Jeff, that helps a lot! After playing more with the ballistics calculator, I see why you (and I) might prefer a 25yd zero instead of 50yds. You do seem to get a more consistently "flat" shot out to 100-125yds, whether you use Underwood's 155gr XTP or a 200gr XTP. Everything drops off significantly after that. The 200gr also delivers more energy once you get beyond 50-80yds (but should have better penetration before that, as you pointed out). I think I am sold on the 200gr. I thought 180 would be a solid compromise, but the ballistic coefficient and Underwood's load of the 200gr makes it look like an almost equal performer in terms of bullet drop and it'll deliver more energy.

Are there any instances where you would prefer the lighter, faster bullet, like 155gr XTP or 140gr XP, in a long barrel setup? Specific game (like coyotes instead of deer)? Two legged predators? Any other edge cases?

Thanks again!

Quote from: alostfrontier on August 23 2021 10:10:39 AM MDT
Are there any instances where you would prefer the lighter, faster bullet, like 155gr XTP or 140gr XP, in a long barrel setup? Specific game (like coyotes instead of deer)? Two legged predators? Any other edge cases?

Thanks again!

I did experiment once with a 357 T/C Contender & a Marlin 1894 using Winchester 110gr JHP bullets.  With around 2200 fps muzzle velocity, these things were wicked on ground hogs but they weren't very accurate beyond 30 yards.  OTOH, I have no qualms shooting my deer loads at any varmint. (4 legged or two)

Jeff

Here is my take on accuracy...The shorter lighter bullets tend to be less accurate at distance, whereas the longer bullets yield better stabilization an carry the needed energy.
I have always liked the 170 grain and higher weights.  That being said the 100% copper offerings like Barnes Tac-XP are longer even though lighter by weight and do quite well.

Quote from: The_Shadow on August 23 2021 12:51:25 PM MDT
Here is my take on accuracy...The shorter lighter bullets tend to be less accurate at distance, whereas the longer bullets yield better stabilization an carry the needed energy.
I have always liked the 170 grain and higher weights.  That being said the 100% copper offerings like Barnes Tac-XP are longer even though lighter by weight and do quite well.

That makes sense. It seems the light, fast bullets are only really ideal for short ranges. If I was into handloading I would definitely try some TAC-XPs. I could buy some loads from Buffalo Bore, but I think I will have my hands full (and my wallet empty!) after buying a bunch of Underwood to experiment with, and I can't legally hunt with solid bullets anyway so it's sort of moot.

180 grain WFN cast bullet. Lk eat half accurate and great compromise between lethality and ballistics.

After all is said and done, it appears the heavier bullets (180-220 grains) are the best suited for hunting applications from the 16" barrel.

I would really like to test Underwood's "Extreme Penetrator" (solid copper) bullets in the Mech-Tech Carbine Conversion Unit. It would be a safe bet to think that most mid-sized game (Whitetail Deer and Black Bear) would quickly drop to these loads.

Agreed? 

Seems like I?ve seen a few videos with that style bullet, and were penetrating around 30 or more inches , if I remember correctly