Seeing more and more articles like this, I love it

Ken

https://www.outdoorlife.com/story/guns/the-10mm-is-the-ultimate-handgun-cartridge-for-hunting-and-personal-defense/

I too like seeing articles on the 10, they're long overdue, but while I think while it's supportive of the 10, it's really poorly written...

" Now, this handgun will likely never be an everyday carry gun in an urban setting"

With compact steel and polymer models now available that's completely incorrect.

"But when you're headed into the backcountry (or live there), the 10mm is ideal for a variety of hunting pursuits and to defend yourself from both animal and human predators."

There are a host of far better revolver cartridges out there for backwoods unless he means backwoods Florida where everything we have that bites is rather small.

"If you're going to hunt with a 10mm, the 1911s have manageable recoil and are supremely accurate. The downside is they can be unreliable if you don't keep them clean and well maintained"


Today with fully supported ramped barrels, the 1911 platform is as reliable as any design ever made. As far as accuracy goes, MEH, there are other platforms like the CZ and Tanfo that out of the box I find more accurate.

"I want a high-capacity magazine loaded in my handgun when my life is on the line. Attempting to reload when a grizzly is quickly closing the distance is not a situation I want to be in."

Grizz with an automatic 10mm? What kind of writer would suggest this? Even with Norma 200's that's an irresponsible thing to suggest.  A revolver in .454 Casull, for sure maybe a hot .44 mag but I wouldn't be in big bear country with a 10 unless my backup had a H&H 375, 470 NE or 500. I can see it now, a tenderfoot with a 10 blasting away at a brown bear running at 30 mph (or Grizz @ 35 mph) when he has his targets at the range at 25 feet, and MISSES! :-)

Other than that the ammo selection and gun descriptions were pretty OK, but leaving out Tanfoglio? That's unforgivable :-) They're one of the few companies that slugged it out (along with Glock) keeping the 10mm in their product line when others bailed.

a true fact 😀

I think 10mm is vastly superior for protection against bears and moose than the large revolver cartridges. So much so that while I live in grizzly country year-round (one was recently captured on the golf course in town), I don't even own any large bore revolvers anymore. Defensive shooting and hunting are very different scenarios, and for defense I think 10mm wins hands down. I believe bear spray beats either option, but that's a different story.

As for urban cary...not for me. For personal defense I don't believe the superior ballistics of the 10mm compensates for the recoil and slower follow-on shots, regardless of who's shooting it. People love to say that the FBI couldn't handle it because they're all a bunch of limp-wristed white collar lawyers, but the fact is that very few people get the level of firearms training that a FBI agent gets, and very few people can master the 10mm cartridge in a combat setting. Those that can will still shoot faster and more accurately with a less powerful cartridge.

10mm is my favorite cartridge, but I'd much rather have a .40 or 9mm or even .45acp in a gunfight. Law enforcement has proven over and over again that adequate ballistics combined with easy shooting and fast follow-on shots is more lethal than superior ballistics with more recoil and slower follow-on shots.  The FBI was right to download the 10mm, and right to abandon it when the .40 S&W provided the same ballistics in a smaller package. Of course you can just load your 10mm with FBI loads...180 grain bullet @ +- 950 fps (which the FBI determined was every bit as effective as a 180 grain bullet @ 1250 fps on human targets, but with much less recoil), but when you can get the same ballistics in a more compact .40, I don't see the point for town cary.

Agreed, I carried the G30, .45 auto for some time, but have switched to the XDm 3.8 - 9mm, with the advancements in 9mm ammo, along with the high capacity offered, the 9 is a formidable carry weapon

Quote from: Muskrat on June 24 2020 08:41:15 AM MDT
I think 10mm is vastly superior for protection against bears and moose than the large revolver cartridges. So much so that while I live in grizzly country year-round (one was recently captured on the golf course in town), I don't even own any large bore revolvers anymore.

>>SNIP<<

I'd like to see someone with a 10 and a raw side of beef strapped to their back walking the woods say that :-)

Superior? to big bores? Where is the data on 10's taking down moose, brown / grizz? Oh and lost animals that die lost to poor shot placement?

I won't debate or criticize a man for what he carries, it's not my life, but suggesting that a 10 is adequate is irresponsible advice to those gullible enough who may try it.

In the city, a high cap, low recoil 9, and a few extra mags works for me, as for woods / back country fishing, it's a 10 in the chest rig, just my personal preference


Ken

I urban carry a 10mm quite regularly.  Of course, here in the mountain west it is not uncommon to take your lunch in the national forest that is only 1/4 mile from my office, or to see deer, elk and occasionally moose or bear in the middle of the city.

Quote from: gnappi on June 24 2020 10:25:33 AM MDT
I'd like to see someone with a 10 and a raw side of beef strapped to their back walking the woods say that :-)

Superior? to big bores? Where is the data on 10's taking down moose, brown / grizz? Oh and lost animals that die lost to poor shot placement?

I won't debate or criticize a man for what he carries, it's not my life, but suggesting that a 10 is adequate is irresponsible advice to those gullible enough who may try it.

Big bores can be ambiguous.  I would take my Glock 20 loaded with eighteen 200 grain hard cast at 1300 fps over a similarly sized 44 magnum or 45 Long Colt revolver.  The 200 grain 10mm offers similar sectional density to a 240 grain 44 magnum or a 250 grain 45 long colt load, and more muzzle energy than you are going to see in a 4" gun based on ballistics by the inch testing and looking at Underwood loads.

Now, if by "big bores" you mean a 454 casull or a 50 AE, I would agree that a Glock 20 or even a Glock 40 isn't going to keep up.

So have you ever seen someone who could hit a exercise ball bouncing down a hill at 30mph with a .454 Casull? I know I haven't, and any bullet that doesn't hit the target is a zero-caliber.

A friend of mine administers the bear defense course for DNR officers, which is a shooting qualification for people who have to deal with grizzly bears under less than ideal conditions...like approaching animal carcasses in grizzly habitat to investigate poaching. He says that very, very few people can pass the course with a handgun, and he's never seen anyone pass with anything larger than a .357 magnum.

If I trained with a 10mm or .40 S&W consistently, I believe either would be a great defense rd, and I could become very proficient with either caliber. As it is, a high cap 9mm with   124gr +P Federal HST, or 124gr +P Speer Gold Dots, along with a few extra mags will do the trick in the areas I travel. I spasticity train with my carry ammo, and no, it's not cheap, but I have tons of it. Ultimately, carry what you can shoot well with; same goes for your woods caliber

Ken

Quote from: Muskrat on June 24 2020 04:45:35 PM MDT
So have you ever seen someone who could hit a exercise ball bouncing down a hill at 30mph with a .454 Casull? I know I haven't, and any bullet that doesn't hit the target is a zero-caliber.

A friend of mine administers the bear defense course for DNR officers, which is a shooting qualification for people who have to deal with grizzly bears under less than ideal conditions...like approaching animal carcasses in grizzly habitat to investigate poaching. He says that very, very few people can pass the course with a handgun, and he's never seen anyone pass with anything larger than a .357 magnum.

So I "think" you agree that a 10 is a poor selection?

I only mentioned the Casull because the "author" of that article was misinformed on many (actually most) points, the 10 is not a big bear killer.

I'm not sure if you're tweaking my nose, so let me close by re-stating my original post...

"A revolver in .454 Casull, for sure maybe a hot .44 mag but I wouldn't be in big bear country with a 10 unless my backup had a H&H 375, 470 NE or 500. I can see it now, a tenderfoot with a 10 blasting away at a brown bear running at 30 mph (or Grizz @ 35 mph) when he has his targets at the range at 25 feet, and MISSES! :-)"

Note the H&H and blasting at a bear running.

No, I don't agree.

I think ANY handgun is a poor defense against a bear attack, but of all them, the 10mm is the best compromise. It has adequate ballistics to reach the vital areas from almost any angle, and the most shootability of any handgun with that attribute. I believe that makes it the most effective and lethal option for handgun protection against a grizzly.

It's a moot point for most people pondering the issue since they'll never see a live grizzly that isn't behind bars, but when you live amongst them you give it a lot of thought. I carry bear spray and a 10mm every day in grizzly country...don't cary a H&H...ever. Lots of folks I know don't cary anything at all, and they're still here.

Being safe around bears is a thinking mans game, not a matter of cartridge selection.

Oh...for what it's worth, my friend who works for DNR and teaches the bear defense program carries a Sig P220 Legion 10mm loaded with 200 grain hard cast bullets as his sidearm while working around grizzlies. Maybe because he's seen just how futile it is to try and get bullets into a moving target with a .454 Casull or similar hand cannon? I don't know...I'll have to ask him.

What can I say but go hiking with a buddy, shoot him in the knee and run. That's a shot you can't miss.  :-)

And you're 100% on point with likely not being able to handle the gun...

https://www.wyofile.com/10mm-glock-fully-functional-in-fatal-grizzly-attack

There's a reason that an increasing number of alaskan guides have ditched their revolvers and moved to a high cap 10, or so I have read.
Really, the only bear I will ever run into in Minnesota is a black bear. I was surprised after searching our DNR site that males can reach 500 lbs, yet attacks are extremely rare unless cubs are involved

Length: Five to six feet long.
Weight: Adults vary in weight from 150 (small female) to 500 (large male) pound

We do have cougar's, bobcats, and Lynx, but are rarely seen

Quote from: gnappi on June 25 2020 05:44:00 AM MDT
https://www.wyofile.com/10mm-glock-fully-functional-in-fatal-grizzly-attack

We get these "best handgun" for Grizzly threds pretty often. The discussions are super easy to find here and contain a wealth of knowledge & wisdom.  Could easily attached a number of similar anecdotal recent grizzly attack stories where the bear was stopped when hunter, hiker or outdoorsman utilized a 10mm to end the attack decisively.  Also find stories of hunters fatally wounded by Grizzly while carrying .375 or something similar.     

10mm with the right ammo is a very popular sidearm choice by people who venture out into Alaskan wilderness.  As Sqlbullet pointed out similar story in NW & Mountain West.  I myself have spent considerable amount of time hunting, fishing, camping & horseback in bear country of Mountain West and on most of those occasions also carried Glock 20 with 15+1 of 200gr hardcast on my person as last line of protection.  I have any number of other choices including 454 Casull, 44 Mag Ruger Super Redhawk and 357 mag S&W 686  but most often choose the 10mm for all around attributes vs the others when in bear country.  No problem if someone else arrives at a different conclusion, long as they carry their own freight.

Bella Twin took a world record sized Canadian Brown Bear with a single shot Cooey Ace 22 rimfire.  Not saying I could have done it but she did.  Phil Shoemaker took out a huge charging Alaskan Brown Bear in 2016 with a short barrel, single stack 9mm.  Not saying I could have done it but he did. 
If I was hunting for Grizzly or Brown Bear with a sidearm, I'd sure make a different selection.  However, for application discussed in the article I'm comfortable with the proper ammo choice and 10mm. 
YMMV.