Thanks Ed. I missed being here.

Quote from: DM1906 on July 01 2015 03:19:49 PM MDT
You can use the FCD or GRX with loaded rounds. The primer isn't an issue, as the ram will either be a flat surface that engages the case head, or actually has a relief in the center (such as the Lee Bulge Buster kit ram), that prevents primer-anvil contact completely.

If your bullets are getting squeezed, using the FCD or GRX, something else is REALLY wrong, and you'll need to start from scratch. If it does this, the round won't fit in (almost) any chamber. The FCD is a case crimping die, meaning, if you are using it as such, the case w/bullet WILL pass through it at least twice. This wasn't an accident, but by design, to ensure the loaded rounds will fit the chambers. The FCD carbide ring is about chamber diameter, similar to the GRX.

As far as correcting loaded ammo with (slightly) bulged cases goes, I'd not recommend it, but I'd probably do it myself, depending on the circumstances. I've done this with my own target loads many times, but I don't know if I'd do it with other's loads. Too much unknown. Ideally, they should be disassembled, properly sized then reloaded, as previously suggested.

Well, since the Lee version using the die from their factory crimp die as the pass through, I don't see any difference. The finished round will get squeezed the exact same just by crimping it.

Quote from: gandog56 on July 04 2015 09:35:24 AM MDT

Quote from: DM1906 on July 01 2015 03:19:49 PM MDT
You can use the FCD or GRX with loaded rounds. The primer isn't an issue, as the ram will either be a flat surface that engages the case head, or actually has a relief in the center (such as the Lee Bulge Buster kit ram), that prevents primer-anvil contact completely.

If your bullets are getting squeezed, using the FCD or GRX, something else is REALLY wrong, and you'll need to start from scratch. If it does this, the round won't fit in (almost) any chamber. The FCD is a case crimping die, meaning, if you are using it as such, the case w/bullet WILL pass through it at least twice. This wasn't an accident, but by design, to ensure the loaded rounds will fit the chambers. The FCD carbide ring is about chamber diameter, similar to the GRX.

As far as correcting loaded ammo with (slightly) bulged cases goes, I'd not recommend it, but I'd probably do it myself, depending on the circumstances. I've done this with my own target loads many times, but I don't know if I'd do it with other's loads. Too much unknown. Ideally, they should be disassembled, properly sized then reloaded, as previously suggested.

Well, since the Lee version using the die from their factory crimp die as the pass through, I don't see any difference. The finished round will get squeezed the exact same just by crimping it.

Yes. That was my point. When using the FCD for pass-through, the adjusting plug and crimp sleeve are removed, leaving only the die tube and the carbide "size" ring. The size ring is similar to the guide chamfer in any bullet seating die, only it is specifically sized to case web/head diameter. The GRX is basically the same thing, only it is designed for the single purpose of pass-through sizing. The Lee "Bulge Buster" kit is only a catch-can, ram, and a guide that prevents the case mouths from catching on the adjuster threads (it also allows the catch-can/container to sit above the die). The FCD can be used for pass-through sizing w/o the kit with a little ingenuity, but it's cheap and does what it says it does.

Quote from: The_Shadow on June 11 2015 10:48:24 AM MDT
It can be done but it is possible that the resizing may squeeze the bullet smaller, but it will work.  I noticed this in the LEE FCD as a finish die and as pass through setup...

If this is true, NOT using the FCD would leave you with cartridges that won't likely fit in any near-properly sized chamber. The FCD sizing ring is not the same diameter as a case sizing die. Using a case sizing die with a seated bullet would do that, but not the FCD. In my experience, even using hard cast bullets .003" oversize will still pass through without engaging anything but the expanded case mouth, and they extract (after crimping) with no die friction.

DM1906, not trying to call you out here.  But when I used my LEE FCD in 10mm with my cast bullets, results showed loose fitting bullets, the crimp held the bullet in place, but I could turn/twist them inside the casing after the FCD was used as a final step.  After I pulled these rounds it showed the bullets were squeezed smaller in diameter leaving them with loose case neck tension.   Maybe it was my FCD...  Oh BTW this also was seen with the 45ACP FCD as well with my cast bullets.

I have never used FCD for anything else but a pass through die ever since.  After pass through sizing, my brass at the start of the extractor cut measures 0.4220" after this step.  The carbide ring may be slightly smaller than others?   I'm not complaining, as it works great for the pass through process.

Shadow, no problems. I understand what you're saying. It is curious, and shouldn't be like that. Unless your cast bullets are way oversize, and/or the cases are exceptionally thick walled, it shouldn't be. I've used cast bullets at .358 (9mm), .403, and .455, and had only one issue with one combination in .380. Some of the Federal brass would cause the case to bulge out to FCD diameter at the bullet base. It was only that brass with that bullet at .358, so I just avoid that combination. I don't recall where I got that brass, but it's easy to identify w/o loading. It has a much more rich tint (deep copper color). It would be easy to suspect an unfinished die, but you've seen it with 2 calibers. I've had a similar thing with some very thick U.S. military .45ACP brass, but the bullet base bulge was no more than a rub in the die, so no issue with that.

That leaves your cast bullet size. Not that it is a problem, as long as you know what you have. Your measurement of .422" is spot on with mine. I just now sized mine using a .45 lead ball. It's exactly .422". Now, if your brass is elastizing out to .422", then it may be too small. Try the ball measurement, just out of curiosity. For comparison, my seating dies (RCBS and Lee) both measure .430" before the taper crimp begins. SAAMI maximum chamber diameter behind the case mouth is .424", so that leaves a .002" allowance. My OEM Glock 20 chamber is .4260" (maximum SAAMI + allowed), and the one LWD chamber (that I measured) is .4244". Even with the sloppy Glock chamber, that leaves only .0031" allowance. The LWD is less at .0024". .002" allowance is an optimal minimum, meaning your oversize bullet loads may not fit in many chambers, especially after a few rounds fired. Again, not that it's a problem, as long as you know what you have.

Quote from: The_Shadow on July 04 2015 02:00:02 PM MDT
DM1906, not trying to call you out here.  But when I used my LEE FCD in 10mm with my cast bullets, results showed loose fitting bullets, the crimp held the bullet in place, but I could turn/twist them inside the casing after the FCD was used as a final step.  After I pulled these rounds it showed the bullets were squeezed smaller in diameter leaving them with loose case neck tension.   Maybe it was my FCD...  Oh BTW this also was seen with the 45ACP FCD as well with my cast bullets.

I have never used FCD for anything else but a pass through die ever since.  After pass through sizing, my brass at the start of the extractor cut measures 0.4220" after this step.  The carbide ring may be slightly smaller than others?   I'm not complaining, as it works great for the pass through process.

A factory crimp die should NEVER be used to create neck tension. The bullet seating die should do that. If the bullets are loose in the first place adjust the seating die! I have NEVER had a bullet come loose after sliding the entire cartridge through a Lee Factory crimp die, even though I only did it with old reloads that never went through the Bulge Buster set BEFORE I seated the bullet. I do not pass any other loaded ammo through the die again, just use the crimping part to crimp them.

Quote from: gandog56 on July 07 2015 11:51:03 AM MDT

Quote from: The_Shadow on July 04 2015 02:00:02 PM MDT
DM1906, not trying to call you out here.  But when I used my LEE FCD in 10mm with my cast bullets, results showed loose fitting bullets, the crimp held the bullet in place, but I could turn/twist them inside the casing after the FCD was used as a final step.  After I pulled these rounds it showed the bullets were squeezed smaller in diameter leaving them with loose case neck tension.   Maybe it was my FCD...  Oh BTW this also was seen with the 45ACP FCD as well with my cast bullets.

I have never used FCD for anything else but a pass through die ever since.  After pass through sizing, my brass at the start of the extractor cut measures 0.4220" after this step.  The carbide ring may be slightly smaller than others?   I'm not complaining, as it works great for the pass through process.

A factory crimp die should NEVER be used to create neck tension. The bullet seating die should do that. If the bullets are loose in the first place adjust the seating die! I have NEVER had a bullet come loose after sliding the entire cartridge through a Lee Factory crimp die, even though I only did it with old reloads that never went through the Bulge Buster set BEFORE I seated the bullet. I do not pass any other loaded ammo through the die again, just use the crimping part to crimp them.

(just for clarification)
If you are using the "crimping part to crimp them", then you are using the "sizing" part on the case mouth and wall. Using the FCD as a pass through, even on loaded rounds, only goes further down the case than simply crimping. No difference, as far as the neck tension is concerned (in regards to the sizing ring). Neck tension is created by the (primary) sizing die, NOT the seating and/or crimp die, in any sense. Crimping is a different part of the process, and should ONLY be used to close the case, either against the bullet, or into a cannelure (as applicable). If seating and crimping are combined into one process, great care should be taken to avoid over-crimping. Over-crimping can cause bullet distortion, and/or decrease neck tension.

Sort of what I was saying, but still....I haven't had one bullet loosen when running a fully reloaded round through the Lee Bulgebuster. And I've done a LOT of them as I just had boxes and boxes of reloads already assembled before I got the Bulgebuster set up. I only did it because apparently one of them early boxes I was having a few problems feeding. I figured I may have gotten some brass that was fired in a not fully supported chamber and my regular sizing die was letting some "Glock Smilies: through. ( I belong to a brass trading board and got a lot of 10mm cases through swaps) But was pointing out it is NOT my normal practice to do so. I do not recommend running fully loaded ammo through, but I have done it and had no problems.

Quote from: gandog56 on July 07 2015 01:05:21 PM MDT
Sort of what I was saying, but still....I haven't had one bullet loosen when running a fully reloaded round through the Lee Bulgebuster. And I've done a LOT of them as I just had boxes and boxes of reloads already assembled before I got the Bulgebuster set up. I only did it because apparently one of them early boxes I was having a few problems feeding. I figured I may have gotten some brass that was fired in a not fully supported chamber and my regular sizing die was letting some "Glock Smilies: through. ( I belong to a brass trading board and got a lot of 10mm cases through swaps) But was pointing out it is NOT my normal practice to do so. I do not recommend running fully loaded ammo through, but I have done it and had no problems.

No problem. I understood what you meant, but it was a little confusing in the read. A beginner may get the wrong idea.

That said, there's nothing wrong with running loaded ammo through the die, as a pass-through. The Bulge Buster kit includes a ram with a relief for the primer, meaning, it only engages the case head. If you, or anyone, is using any other method, this should be taken into consideration. However, I wouldn't iron out Glock smiles (frowns), loaded or empty. (real) Smiles = junk. Lee also includes a disclaimer in this regard, for the same reasons. The thread "Cross section of a Glock smile" explains it quite well, although I don't remember where that was (here or at GT).

[edit]
Haha. Just noticed that smiley thread is a sticky in this forum....

Quote from: DM1906The thread "Cross section of a Glock smile" explains it quite well, although I don't remember where that was (here or at GT).
Haha. Just noticed that smiley thread is a sticky in this forum....

Yes the "Cross Section of a Smiley" Started out out on GlockTalk, but when this forum started I brought that info over because it was very valuable to share...Thanks to Yondering who originally posted these pictures of the smiled brass over at GT.  He and I were trying to show others that "Pass-Through Sizing" would not correct the issue where the brass was starting to shear.

Oh BTW Yondering did join this forum but hasn't been on since Aug 19th 2014

Hi, I am new to the forum but not to reloading.  For my 10mm reloading I went with the Dillon Pistol Carbide does.  They work really well,  I check all my reloads with a cartridge Go/nogo gauge.  Using the Dillon Dies all of my reloads fit in that the same way as they will in my Glock Chamber.  I find there is no need for additional resizing such as using the Dillon resizer.   They are not inexpensive but they work and removing the tops of the seater and the crimper is really easy without disturbing any settings.
Bazzer

Bazzer, just keep the pass through setup in your mind as you may find some brass that are expanded very low (just above the extractor cut)  In all of the brass I have measured during the pull downs Starline brass measures 0.4215"-0.4220" in this area.   The cartridge gauge is usually 0.4240"  and my brass after the pass through process is 0.4230", some of my barrels are as as tight as the cartridge gauge...

Max expansion in the Glock factory barrels have shown to expand to 0.4340" and any more than that is starting to "SMILE"!

When you think about the sizing die, look at the carbide ring opening, there is a radiused edge to allow the cases to enter easily, and then the shell plate or shell holder are areas that do not allow case wall contact to reduce it back to original size.

This is where a full pass through whether Redding GRX or LEE FCD (guts removed Bulge Buster) works to size the area and even the extraction rims are made uniformly round in the process.  This process also allows me another opportunity to see any damaged casings.

In a recent range trip I found 30 spent 10mm brass on the FBI range, all Federal cases as shot from the HK MP-5 10mm.  Of those I found only 20 to be useable as the rest had splits the length of the case.  This has been a very common situation with the contract ammo shot in these guns...

Quote from: The_Shadow on April 07 2016 09:23:22 AM MDT
Bazzer, just keep the pass through setup in your mind as you may find some brass that are expanded very low (just above the extractor cut)  In all of the brass I have measured during the pull downs Starline brass measures 0.4215"-0.4220" in this area.   The cartridge gauge is usually 0.4240"  and my brass after the pass through process is 0.4230", some of my barrels are as as tight as the cartridge gauge...

Max expansion in the Glock factory barrels have shown to expand to 0.4340" and any more than that is starting to "SMILE"!

When you think about the sizing die, look at the carbide ring opening, there is a radiused edge to allow the cases to enter easily, and then the shell plate or shell holder are areas that do not allow case wall contact to reduce it back to original size.

This is where a full pass through whether Redding GRX or LEE FCD (guts removed Bulge Buster) works to size the area and even the extraction rims are made uniformly round in the process.  This process also allows me another opportunity to see any damaged casings.

In a recent range trip I found 30 spent 10mm brass on the FBI range, all Federal cases as shot from the HK MP-5 10mm.  Of those I found only 20 to be useable as the rest had splits the length of the case.  This has been a very common situation with the contract ammo shot in these guns...

Thanks for the response. I forgot to mention 10mm and my Glock 29 are new to me.  At the moment I am checking every cartridge with a Dillon Go/NoGo gauge. This gauge appears to have tighter tolerances than the chamber on my Glock.  So far the only failure I have had is when I started with the taper crimp die to loose to remove the "bell" put in at the powder station.  Once adjusted the problem has gone away.  But in the meantime, not knowing how much crimp to put on, I'll continue to check every cartridge.

I'm new here and was looking for some 10mm powder info and this thread caught my eye. I need to make time to read the whole thing but I did see 9mm mentioned.
I compete using 9mm and reload by the thousands with bulk used brass and always end up with a handful of rounds that won't pass my chamber checker test. When a couple hundred rounds have been accumulated my Lee bulge buster setup is put into action. Since the 9mm case is tapered we use a Lee 9mm Makarov crimp die with the guts removed to work with the Bulge Buster. You can run the setup dry and I have also used a little case lube. The loaded rounds now pass the chamber test and make perfect practice ammo that I have also used in competition.
Sorry if this has already been talked about in this thread.   Denny

Denny, Yes that is what many are using, the "Lee 9mm Makarov FCD" with the guts removed, as a pass-through, to insure better reliability with their 9mm Luger casings!

I use the Lee 45ACP FCD  pass-through of the 45 and will utilize it as a sizer for my 410 cases, (push it up, the tap it back out, because of the rim it can go through)

I use the 380ACP FCD for pass-through of those as well.

The 10mm FCD, I use for 10mm / 40S&W /357Sig /9x25 Dillon.   It is the best way to insure 100% reliability and allows yet another case inspection.