Here is the CIP spec sheet:

http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/uploads/tdcc/tab-iv/tabivcal-en-page28.pdf

It calls out groove diameter of 9.02mm (.3551") and a bore of 8.82mm (.3472").

It also specs a pressure of 2350 Bar which is 34083.87 PSI.  This is actually lower than SAAMI.

Question would be what 1980's spec ammo was loaded to pressure wise.  I don't have any idea how we would validate that.  Anyone got a couple boxes of ammo laying around from 1985?

I should have regrabbed the article to quote from

Shooting Times: May 2013 "Ballistician's Notebook: 9mm Luger Revolution" by Allan Jones

QuoteA typical 115-grain load would make the nominal velocity of about 1,125 to 1,150fps at well under the 9mm's maximum average pressure (MAP) of 35,000psi; it was common for those loads to run about 26,000 psi. The 124-grain pressures ran a little higher, but seldom more than 30,000 psi. Adding to the problem was the selection of non canister propellants. When the 9mm Luger cartridge was a low-volume (and expensive) product, it was not economically feasible for many factories to inventory special propellants for it. Most 9mm Luger ammo was loaded with propellants that also worked well in the .38 Special.

This is what I get for trying to quote things I read months ago without double checking.

Back when I was studying the +P+ ammo of Underwood and trying to get a fix on the powder Kevin was using I was researching various 9mm pressures and velocities.  This was what led to finding SAAMI. CIP and NATO pressures for the cartridge.

Here is a link to Military specs; http://www.ar15.com/content/webPDF/TM43-0001-27.pdf

In section 12  9mm

QuoteUse:
Modified M3 Submachine Gun or commercial weapons.
(The use in M9 Pistol is not authorized.) The cartridge is
intended for use against personnel.
NOTE
Mid case pressures normally run
8000 to 10,000 psi higher than case
mouth pressure.
Mid case pressure ...................... 38,500 psi (avg),
43,000 psi (max)
Velocity ..................................... 1125 + 90 fps,

QuoteNOTE
M882 ammunition can be used in the
following nonstandard weapons:
Pistol Submachine Guns
HK P7 series (GE) HK MP5 (GE)
Walther P38 (GE) HK MP5SD (GE)
FN P35 (BE) IMI Uzi (IS)
Baretta M12 (IT)
FFV M45/45B (SW)
Madsen M50 (DE)
CZ M23 (CZ)
Sten MK II (UK)
Sterling 12A3 (UK)

Performance:
Case mouth pressure ........................31,175 psi (avg),
36,250 psi (max)
Velocity ............................................1263 ± 5 fps, 15 ft
from muzzle

QuoteDescription:
HIGH PRESSURE TEST Cartridge. The cartridge is
identified by a tinned cartridge case and high pressure
test head stamp.

Performance:
Chamber pressure ............................50,000 psi
Velocity............................................. NA

I have run my cast bullets at 0.3560" for my 9mm stuff, but many have said they have better potential at 0.3570"

I have shot 0.357" bullet from my 357Sig and 9x25Dillon barrels.

Slug your 9mm barrels and go .002-.003 over bore diameter is a good cast lead sizing. Unless you have really shallow rifling grooves of course.

Guess it's time for me to get rid of the 9mm Silvertips I've had since the 80's. 

Quote from: Bozz10mm on October 14 2014 07:16:42 AM MDT
Guess it's time for me to get rid of the 9mm Silvertips I've had since the 80's.

Lets pull and test em!  We can get to the bottom of the question about 1980's 9mm ammo.

The Silvertips were great bulles but Winchester was one of those companies that formulated a batch of powder (proprietary non canister) to whatever they were loading at the time.  However there are so many good powders out on the market today that could bring the performance up to new levels of +P and +P+ while staying inside the pressure parameters...

Then you have to consider the working parameters of performance, like how the projectile acts at various velocities and media types as balanced out by the charge weight of a particular powder for the application.  Things like low flash, consistent ignition properties and burn characteristics that are clean and today that includes things like lead free primers.

Many bullets of the time period had exposed lead base cores, this includes the Black Talons and many others and they are less desirable by most of todays contracts.

Maybe they should screen their FBI cadets better.  I mean if one can barely shoot a 9mm then it's time to call Houston because we have a problem.   All this talk about specific types of ammo and pressures do to agents not able to shoot hotter stuff is nuts.   Our agents should be able to handle more effective ammo or cartridges if you want to be an agent.   Maybe those that have issues should be behind a desk.    Our agents should be armed with the most effective cartridge and load available.

IIRC, even desk Agents must be able to meet qualifying at the range.

No, I think it is the Alighty Dollar that is the influencing factor here. 9mm has become so popular and the rounds have progressed so much over what they had during Miami that they really can save a buck and have good quality ammo today. I am also wondering if there is a change going in throughout all of the Federal Branches of Investigation and Defense to consolidate into a single caliber across the board. The FBI does all the legwork and gets all the press, but the other divisions have to follow suit sort of thinking.

This may explain some things about the FBI's selection and choice of ammo

http://10mm-firearms.com/general-discussion/new-speer-9mm-gold-dot-g2/#new

From the article "To Much Excessive Wear" Really.

First the 10mm was to much so they switched to 40S&W. Now that has proved to be to much. On to the 9mm. A couple of years hence and the 9mm will be to much. We are now looking for high cap semi autos in 22RF short.

It's not that .40 s&w is too much.  The 9mm ammo has gotten so much better that the previous gains the .40 may have given them have been deminished.  Now they have two very similarly performing rounds to choose from in pistols of the exact same size but one of them provides higher ammo capacity.

My issued gun is 9mm and for a law enforcement setting, given the choice I would choose it over a .40.

I keep hearing this.

I have always thought, and continue to think that the advantage of the 40 S&W over the 9MM is .045" diameter and a higher volume to diameter ratio of case capacity.  These mathematical values are fixed and not subject to dispute.

Any advantage claimed by one camp over the other is the result of engineering expertise applied to the cartridge in the arena of internal and terminal ballistics.  Such advantages will go back and forth.  Currently, the 9mm is on the up swing as it appears several manufacturers have applied significant resources to boosting the capabilities of the 9mm.

And while the current factory offerings look really good, the same engineering expertise could be leveraged to make the 40 perform better.  Because it is bigger and has more case volume.  It will therefore always have more capability than the 9mm.  Except for making .355 holes in stuff.

I will add that I am NOT a 9mm hater.  Have owned in the past, and have shopped a number of 9mm guns lately, most commonly BHP's.