Quote from: Oldsoldier 69 on July 12 2014 08:21:43 PM MDT
I am seeking advice to stock up on SD ammo for both pistols. Recommendations??

I use DoubleTap JHP Noslers: 150gr, 180gr, and 200gr, alternating in each mag.

Quote from: Oldsoldier 69 on July 12 2014 08:21:43 PM MDT
I use GA Arms 180 FMJ for range ammo in my new Kimber and an old G20 (Gen 1?). I am seeking advice to stock up on SD ammo for both pistols. Recommendations??

Two best recommendations in my opinion.
180 grain Federal Vital-Shok Trophy Bonded
155 grain Buffalo Bore TAC-XP 

The 175 gr Hornady load tested very well. Most 165 gr JHP loaded to around 1,300 fps performs well, too. Underwood sells a 165 gr Gold Dot that tested well. If you're looking for a woods defense load, 200 gr XTP does well at around 1,200 fps.

I wouldn't buy anything from Double Tap due to their lying to customers.

Quote from: Oldsoldier 69 on July 12 2014 08:21:43 PM MDT
I use GA Arms 180 FMJ for range ammo in my new Kimber and an old G20 (Gen 1?). I am seeking advice to stock up on SD ammo for both pistols. Recommendations??

I would recommend the new Federal 180 gr JSP, Underwood 165 grain gold dot, UW 200 grain nosler.

Quote from: Raggedyman on July 14 2014 11:21:19 AM MDT
I wouldn't buy anything from Double Tap due to their lying to customers.

Well they made a step in the right direction changing the barrel length to 5"+  I figure when they get the flap rating based on the Javelina 7" barrel we will really be in the ballpark 

Right? Of course, they COULD just print the ACTUAL velocity achieved with a service length 4.5" barrel like Underwood does.

10mm PROGRADE 125 and 140 Grain Barnes TAC-XP :

Nice. Thanks for posting. The 140 gr test produced results very consistent with my own 140 gr TAC-XP test. A 1" difference in penetration is statistically irrelevant. That is encouraging. I've been concerned that Cleargel can sometimes yield results that are not consistent with gelatin. It appears that at least at this velocity, Cleargel is roughly consistent with gelatin. I'm still concerned that at 1,500 fps or faster, the differences seem to open up but I only have a couple of data points to compare at those velocities. If anyone else can come up with some high velocity comparisons between Cleargel and gelatin, I'd like to see them. I would love to stop messing around with gelatin and move to the Cleargel.


ETA: just realized that was a 140 gr and I tested 155 gr at the same velocity. Theoretically, the 155 gr should have gone deeper. Same design, same velocity, different mass (and sectional density). That might still be within the normal range of variation for the two loads, especially if the 155 gr shot was near the lower limit and the 140 gr shot was near the upper limit, but I find myself questioning the accuracy of Cleargel again. Any other opinions?

Hadnt seen this mentioned but he did those 125 and 140 barnes prograde testong from a g29 with factory barrel.  Lost a bunch of velocity but performed well, however no better than 40 cal rounds.

The Prograde performance looked pretty decent to me particularly when considering the 3.7" barrel.

Off top of head can't recall exactly source however, have seen some testing between FBI protocol ballistic gelatin and Cleargel.   Head to head, seemed Cleargel allowed approximately 10% deeper penetration.  Was "comparable" but not identical.   

I'm not sure, but I *think* it might be velocity dependent. The results from service caliber pistol ammo seems to be generally consistent with gelatin but when I tested Hornady 7.62x39mm 123 gr SST, I got a full 10" less penetration than Mrgunsngear. There seems to be some significant variation in 10mm and .357 loads once you get past 1,300 or 1,500 fps but I'm not really sure.

Quote from: Raggedyman on July 24 2014 10:56:07 AM MDT
Nice. Thanks for posting. The 140 gr test produced results very consistent with my own 140 gr TAC-XP test. A 1" difference in penetration is statistically irrelevant. That is encouraging. I've been concerned that Cleargel can sometimes yield results that are not consistent with gelatin. It appears that at least at this velocity, Cleargel is roughly consistent with gelatin. I'm still concerned that at 1,500 fps or faster, the differences seem to open up but I only have a couple of data points to compare at those velocities. If anyone else can come up with some high velocity comparisons between Cleargel and gelatin, I'd like to see them. I would love to stop messing around with gelatin and move to the Cleargel.


ETA: just realized that was a 140 gr and I tested 155 gr at the same velocity. Theoretically, the 155 gr should have gone deeper. Same design, same velocity, different mass (and sectional density). That might still be within the normal range of variation for the two loads, especially if the 155 gr shot was near the lower limit and the 140 gr shot was near the upper limit, but I find myself questioning the accuracy of Cleargel again. Any other opinions?

Came across article on Pocket Guns & Gear Blog where he discusses clear gel & Charles Schwartz Quantitative Ammunition Selection and his work.
http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2013/11/the-continuing-evolution-of-terminal.html
Know you not particularly interested in material found on Blog; and in general I agree but but I found this information interesting so I'll share. 
By the way Pocket's test of Buffalo Bore 155 TAC-XP in clear gel very, very similar to yours and nearly exact when utilizing Charles Schwartz's mathematical models.

I haven't had time to read all the way through yet but the article load really interesting. I had heard that water was supposed to cause slightly greater expansion than is normal in tissue or gelatin.

I'm not surprised that the TAC-XP performed about the same in gelatin and clear gel. It looks like it is very consistent with gelatin at typical pistol velocity. It is only at higher velocity that there seems to be a discrepancy and I'm not even convinced that is the case.

Can I request a 200gr xtp underwood tested in real gel with 4 layer heavy denim?  It didnt penetrate as much as I thought it would in tnoutdoors9 test.  Also just a standard hornady custom factory load 180 and 200gr xtp would be nice. Or roughly 1180 fps in the 180gr and 1080fps in the 200gr.