I would disagree respectively in that for example FBI criteria was based on a high degree of experience and specific need.

I might also add that a bad guy stopped is solid proof under the specific circumstances that round worked but the variation of conditions of which those proven rounds worked is evidence they work.

So making that choice based on odds alone are pretty good bet that they are worthy of that consideration.

One thing we may agree on it is a personal choice . I will base mine on good real,life data collected in situations that are more likely a good representations of what and how you may need to use the weapon to stop a threat.

Now I like the 10 allot but there is so much more to consider with regards to the aftermath and moment of truth that the 45 for now is my choice except those days I carry the 10....!

Quote from: Ramjet on July 08 2013 08:47:58 PM MDT...but there is so much more to consider with regards to the aftermath and moment of truth...

Like what?  Even within factory ammo choices there is nothing a 10mm load can't do that a 45 Auto load can.  The expansion of HST in 45 may be the exception.

I really am not arguing 10 vs 45 as it is personal choice. But I tend to lean on the conservative side by choosing to carry what the experts and data have confirmed what works.

Example;

Prosecutor; "Mr. X, why do you carry that caliber for self defense?"

Mr. X; "well it is what the local Police use."

That is short answer hard to argue with.

Again both are excellent very capable cartridges its just a personal choice.

Great point Ramjet.Under questioning prosecuting  team or a defense team along with a ballistic expert,it is wise esp in urban or enclosed quarters to make the choice of not just why a 10mm but what rational reason for such a round.The round itself is considered by many as a over penetrator by the uneducated, and that's just a fact,not being sarcastic.Even my fellow LEO's would say "Oh noooo,over penetration". However in my particular case and agency,we qualify with 2 allowed off duty pistols.Then they record what make of ammo,rated load,and must be jhp of course.That being said,i really focus on a lighter side and keep one at 180
to have versitility.In the end,an explanation will need to come forward to refute the big bad penetrator.Light side once proven and explained will dispel the over penetration factor.It just the price we pay as opposed to the common rounds.Count on it,they will focus on that against you.

Hey, I'm not saying things can't get hairy in court from various perspectives.

By the same token I'ld then like to know how you explain away the use of a 12 Gauge.  12ga shotguns with 00Buck at close range make 10mm Auto look like a BB gun, yet have been used in self defense maaaaaaaaaaaaaany times.  I don't know, maybe you just consider a 12 Gauge not to be used for self defense either, simply on account of not being able to get a grip on explaining it away in court. 

With that kind of thinking how do you explain away any rifle?  Would you seriously not consider any rifle for the use of self defense?

With just what I've mentioned above practically explains your way toward 10mm Auto being a perfectly reasonable choice.

With that kind of thinking you would never consider a high capacity magazine (generally considered any mag holding more than 10 rounds).

pacapcop mentioned about many considering the 10mm Auto to be an overpenetrator.  I submit to you that any so called ballistic expert knows better, and about 99.999% of the general public has no clue 10mm Auto even exists.  This kind of talk sounds to me like you're confusing a courtroom group with a firearms forum on the internet.

More reasons for qualifying the use of 10mm Auto for self defense;
It is no more powerful than 357 Magnum which is a common self defense cartridge.
If you used an FBI spec load it is no more powerful than 9mm Luger which is an insanely common self defense cartridge.
Also;  Why not?

I guess the bottom line is things can and sometimes do go wrong in court, and at that it could happen just as well in a case by the use of 380 Auto.  By the same token, in court, the main thing is figuring out if you were even justified to shoot or not.  And unless you used something like 50BMG, your chosen round if probably quite a ways down on importance.  You make it sound like your worry about it as if there's a specific law against the use of 10mm Auto.

Keep in mind too, 10mm Auto has come a long way since any court case you are referring to.  And like you mentioned, I also am not arguing 10 vs 45 as it is personal choice.  Also, please don't take it that my intent is to be argumentative (even though by definition I'm making an argument ).  I'm simply throwing my own personal view out there too.

No doubt everyone should make up their own mind as they see fit.

My thought process for 10mm carry is that the large frame Glocks fit me best and, when deciding between available calibers, 10mm offers the most flexibility with loadings.

When it comes to concealed carry and self defense I feel it best to focus on just one gun... so that factors in too. I am late to this party though and once my skill level is where I think it should be I may revisit that conviction.

All that said, I carry Underwood 165gr bonded defense in urban areas and 200gr XTP or FMJ when in the woods.

Redline you are good defender of the 10 but keep in mind we all love the 10 that's why we are here.

So we all agree to live by our personal convictions .

I am going to the 45 full size for now I carry the 10mm daily but the loads are about what a 40 can do.

So we are all one big happy family...........

sOnspark,

I think the Underwood 200gr XTP would make an excellent defense round anywhere (except maybe NJ with their questionable state statutes). With the velocity it is loaded to, I don't consider it to be overpenetrating. At least not based on Tnoutdoors9 video www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFUAmIgR918.

I will be trying some at the range tomorrow & decide whether that will be my every day carry load. My wife took my Glock 26, so now my Glock 20 is my edc gun.

Quote from: DAVIDF on July 10 2013 12:26:49 PM MDT
sOnspark,

I think the Underwood 200gr XTP would make an excellent defense round anywhere (except maybe NJ with their questionable state statutes). With the velocity it is loaded to, I don't consider it to be overpenetrating. At least not based on Tnoutdoors9 video www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFUAmIgR918.

I will be trying some at the range tomorrow & decide whether that will be my every day carry load. My wife took my Glock 26, so now my Glock 20 is my edc gun.

You may be right... my only concern with the 200gr XTP is I have seen/heard somewhere that it does not always expand properly (which is, of course, essential in a self-defense scenario involving humans) so that is why I've considered switching to FMJs for woods carry where penetration is the key and even partial expansion might be unhelpful. I do need to find some more data, though...

I've seen tests where the xtp's don't expand in bare gelatin or thru denim, but those were at far lower velocities than the ones that Underwood loads them to.

If you want more than 16 inches or so of penetration, then the fmj or TMJ would be much better.

XTP are pretty tough bullets one would wonder why Hornady does not load them in all there Critical defense ammo if they worked so well.

I was responding primarily to the store question and urban scene setting and load. I agree and it boils down to personal choice. Shotguns, well there are options too. There was a case in Arizona I believe where a man with a 10mm went thru a very sick trial because of his choice. His choice was a 10mm in the North AZ woods, now imagine a store or urban setting. He eventually was freed but went thru the ringer and the person he shot had a history of anger issues. And what do we have today, the most hell bent attempt on legal gun owners by the media and politicos.

Quote from: DAVIDF on July 10 2013 02:25:52 PM MDT
I've seen tests where the xtp's don't expand in bare gelatin or thru denim, but those were at far lower velocities than the ones that Underwood loads them to.

If you want more than 16 inches or so of penetration, then the fmj or TMJ would be much better.

Thanks - good to know

IIRC he (Harold Fish?) suffered due to some ambiguity in AZ's stand your ground law at that time (which was addressed and backdated so he'd be freed) and, more importantly, he seemed to have a less than capable legal defense team.

But point taken... the legal system is scary and when public opinion can influence the verdict as much or more than the law it really goes off the rails.

I hope Zimmerman gets a fair shake :-/

Exactly our point. It is probable that if you are in defensive shooting you're life will be turned upside down. 1/5 this country is unreasonably thinking (or non-thinking people) that think the conviction they were edoctrinated with, is far superior to your right to protect your life against a scumbag. Thus our cautious approach to weapon and ammo choice.

Zimmerman is looking good for the good guys. I like you hope so...........not guilty!