Load the Syntecs using cast bullet data. Hopefully they are sized at least 1 thousandth over groove diameter or groups and leading might not be where you want it.

Quote from: REDLINE on August 14 2019 01:33:27 PM MDT
Interesting, the bullets coming in under 215 grains. I wonder if the would be around 210 grains if not powder coated. Definitely not 220 grain bullets. I can see were some would consider that as marginal, but to me it makes a difference.

Coating adds an insignificant amount of weight. Far less than a grain.

Good report on the customer service.

I've loaded a few different WFN bullets with the CCI 350 and Accurate No. 9. For the lubed Double Tap or Beartooth, a bit into the 13s on charge weight gets 1200 fps. I get a bit more velocity with my own cast and powder coated LBT bullets. High 12s puts me at the 1200 fps mark. All with a Gen 3 Glock 20 and stock barrel.

FYI, pretty sure you can specify Hi Tek coated bullets from MBW. Recommend them for the next order. No smoke. No leading, and a bit more velocity. Win, win, win!

Please everyone do your own workups.

Quote from: Spudmeister on September 26 2019 08:53:38 PM MDT
5pins,

Sorry.  I should have mentioned the bullets are sized to .401" . 

All things being equal the softer the bullet the less pressure it take for it to obturate.  That is for enough pressure/push behind it for it to expand and fill the lands and grooves of the barrel.  At one end of the spectrum I load standard pressure 38 specials with 158gr bullets.  They are pure lead  (bhn 6 or so)being driven about 800 fps.  When done correctly I get zero leading.  A harder bullet would not have enough pressure pushing it to obturate the bullet and you may get gas blow by of the bullet and that leaves a lot of lead in the barrel.  In this example the harder bullet gives poorer accuracy and cruds the barrel up with lead quickly.

But when I had a 444 Marlin I shot 22 bhn 330gr gas checked bullets at 2,000 fps with no leading.  I am simplifying it some but the point is the hardness of a bullet is neither good or bad but whatever suits the need.  I've had really good luck with 21-22 bhn bullet in the 10mm and a few other guns but not much in lighter loads.   The 15 bhn with the 185gr is doing quite well and I don't see any advantage to making the bullets harder.

This is a really good post. It is a common misconception that all you need to do to avoid leading is to use harder alloy. As you explained, not so simple.

Correctly coated, sized and loaded cast bullets do not lead the barrel. I can push my powder coated 10mm bullets hard with great results. E.g. a 201 gr WFN at 1250 fps out of a G20.

I do see some additional velocity, too. Probably 50 fps greater than the similar bullet lubed traditionally.

I see no advantage to traditionally lubed bullets in a 10mm vs coated lead or even plated. Pretty much all I load any more for 10mm is coated cast bullets that I make at home for about 1.5 cents each.

NOE makes some great molds and Al is a great guy to work with. They also have some great innovations like their bushing bullet sizing dies and M style expanders.

Alas, they molds were fat with a lot of positive size variance. My 40 cal mold dropped greater than .405". After coating with PC, it was a LOT to ask through the sizer. So I sold it and another 38 cal mold that was similarly rotund.

I've recently purchased a TC 4 cav mold from LBT and it is terrific! Veral Smith takes his time getting the mold to you, however.

Actually went through a bit of a journey with 10mm range molds. Started with a Lee 401-175-TC. Great bullet. Mold sucked. Then went with the NOE mentioned above.

Moved on to a Lyman 401638. Again, nice bullet and correct diameter, but serious QC problems and fussing with warranty led me to get rid of it too. So I contacted Veral, and told him what I wanted. A 401-175-TC. That's what I got. Exactly. LBT molds are a joy to cast with.

Since you're not adding diameter with coating, the NOE will probably be perfect! So much better quality than Lee.

Congrats!

Quote from: Benchrst on August 29 2018 10:15:32 PM MDT
https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/10mm-lbt-200gr-wfn-pb/

Call them, these are available coated

Good call!

I have an LBT mold for this bullet. I cast and coat my own. It is great! 1250 fps from the G20 with great accuracy. It loves Accurate No. 9.

Hah. Loved the Power Point powder reference too! Spent about 5 hours today working on a presentation for Friday and will complete it tomorrow. Corporate finance and all that.

Nice report and nice results. I think that some guys over emphasize the need to go with super strong alloy in 10mm.

15 should be plenty, and that would have been super hard by Elmer Keith standards.

Well, they do have a speed limit, no doubt.

What firearm. Not unlike cast bullets, a poor fitting plated bullet does not group. Also, the expander in your die set might give too narrow of an interior diameter of the neck. Seating soft plated bullets into such a tight neck can swage the bucket diameter down. Again, not unlike cast bullets.

I noticed that some plates bullets would start at .400". After seating, the diameter would squish to .399". Makes a BIG difference -- especially in Glocks where the groove diameter is typically > .400".

My solution was to use an RCBS 401 Cowboy expander plug. A touch more shank diameter, yet still afforded sufficient neck tension. Bullets went in .400" and stayed .400". Better groups, but never at hot velocities.

Also be sure that the seating/crimp operation is not scraping the plating.

Next go 'round, you might try one of the many excellent coated cast bullets. I am almost exclusively using my own cast and coated bullets. Better groups than plated, and I can shoot max effort ammo without leading or fuss.

Interesting results and great photos. Thank you for the good work!

It would be interesting to know the alloy of the lead. It does not deform nearly as much as most other HP bullets. It might be of a bit m6or antimony content, although not excessively so since it doesn't appear brittle.

New Starline brass (for most consistent next tension). Blue Dot or Accurate No. 9. 180 or 200 gr XTP. Most likely those combos will yield something that your gun likes.

Do you wet clean, by chance? With super clean brass it has a tendency to stick rather than slip under the sizing ring. It can gall ahead of the carbide ring. I like a little Hornady One Shot to let the brass slip inside the sizer easier. Makes the whole process more civilized.

Quote from: cwlongshot on July 31 2019 03:31:52 AM MDT

Quote from: Taterhead on July 18 2019 12:32:04 PM MDT
Personally, coated bullets render traditional lube obsolete for me. Whether is is my own PC cast bullets or commercial cast Hi-Tek bullets. Clean. No leading, no lube smoke and no mess.

Quote from: Taterhead on July 18 2019 12:32:04 PM MDT
Personally, coated bullets render traditional lube obsolete for me. Whether is is my own PC cast bullets or commercial cast Hi-Tek bullets. Clean. No leading, no lube smoke and no mess.

EXACTLY my own experience too.

I cast and powder coat my own bullets. I cast for most everything I shoot. Plain base powder coated bullets that will expand have been pushed past 1800 with zero fouling caused by the coating. Properly applied it is a polymer jacket and will hold up to even more velocity if needed. Its not a replacement for a gas check. But it allows more velocity than a plain base lubed bullet for certain!



CW

Nice looking CW! Is that clear PC or one of your famous color mixes?

Quote from: REDLINE on July 19 2019 11:56:03 PM MDT

Quote from: Taterhead on July 18 2019 12:32:04 PM MDTPersonally, coated bullets render traditional lube obsolete for me. Whether is is my own PC cast bullets or commercial cast Hi-Tek bullets. Clean. No leading, no lube smoke and no mess.

My results with commercial cast Hi-Tek bullets has been exactly opposite. They leaded 2 different barrels badly (large lead shards coming out on the cleaning patches which never happened with the same bullets NOT Hi-Tek coated) and produced a cloud of talcum-powder-fine powder during firing. When I say "cloud" I mean a noticeably bigger cloud than I've ever seen using lubed bullets. I called the manufacturer of the Hi-Tek bullets who was completely baffled and had no answer as to why. And on top of all that, baking on the Hi-Tek coating noticeably lowers the hard cast bullet hardness which I can't live with. My theory (no basis for fact) is the Hi-Tek coating only works for mouse fart loads, and not my 10mm loads at both 1150ish and +1300 feet per second (using a 200 grain WFN bullet).

Yeah, that would turn me off to coating too!

Smoking HT means an improper cure, and it obviously failed to protect your barrel. I assume that you selected a proper diameter.

I've personally moved from commercial HT to powder coating my own. When I want heat treated bullets, I coat, size then bake in the oven for an hour at 425F then quench.

Beautiful results running 10mm bullets hard.

Knowing what I know now, if I didn't cast my own WFN bullets, I would order commercial bullets as-cast and bare. Then I'd coat, size and quench (if desired). So easy to do.

I've dabbled recently with my own HT, but still working out the bugs. It is much more difficult to get right than PC, and that might be what you saw in your own experience.

Another data point. 13 gr A9 under a coated 200 gr bullet runs 1215 fps from my 4.6" barrel. So the reported results are not too far out of the realm of expectations.

Agree wholeheartedly with CW that primers are a poor indicator of pressure.