Quote from: mcseal2 on May 01 2019 04:14:27 PM MDT
I like the 10mm enough I'm thinking of trading one of my other handguns in on a second 10mm.  I have always liked to have 2 ways to fire any ammo I have around so I end up with 2 of everything.  I recently got a Glock 20 as my first 10mm.  I'm in the process of getting it set up to shoot heavy bullets to carry while hunting in bear country.

For a second one I'm leaning toward a single action only I can carry on safety with the hammer cocked for a similar purpose.  I've always liked 1911's very much and am considering going that route.  That said any 10mm I buy will likely get carried hunting and fishing in some nasty conditions.  I fish a river that is all mud and sandbars from a jon boat with a surface drive motor.  Everything I take on that river gets muddy and/or sandblasted by the time I get home, sometimes before I get home.  I've moose hunted Alaska in a swamp that was awful on everything too, and plan to go to similar areas in the future.  A 1911 is not nearly as easy to field strip as the Sig 226 I have.  I'd hate to have a 1911 send something flying while I was reassembling it in adverse conditions 100 miles from town.  The Sig does not have the grip safety which is one less place for stuff to get inside and screw something up, but is also one less safety carrying a gun cocked and locked.

I already have the Glock to use for the nasty stuff, but a second 10mm will get used much the same way.  If I think there is a chance I might end up hunting with the 10mm I'd definitely take the single action over the Glock.  Really anytime weight isn't a huge issue I'll take the single action over the Glock.  I grew up on revolvers with worked over triggers, shoot 2lb triggers on my rifles, I love good triggers. 

I'll probably shoot some mid level (1200-1250fps) 180gr ammo around home, and 200 or 220gr Underwood hardcast ammo when in bear country.  I want something that can handle both without a lot of switching parts.  I will never use anything lighter than the Fiocchi 180gr ammo which shows 1250fps on the box more than likely.

Whatever I choose will need to have night sights and a rail.  I like to have a TLR-1 light on my handgun on the river at night, plus hiking to a spot or packing meat out after dark when hunting.

What would you choose and why? 

Thanks to everyone for their help.     

I second the Ruger SR1911 in 10mm.  Made in the US by a US company.


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Quote from: deepblue on May 03 2019 05:57:33 PM MDT
My LGS has a lightly used Dan Wesson Razorback RX-10 in 10MM. Asking $1200... probably has wiggle room on $ but seems a little high.
I don't know much about this model but love 10mm. It has plain black fixed sights.

Any thoughts or input would be greatly appreciated.

Just be sure you break it in wet with FP-10, I love mine!


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Quote from: Ramjet on April 25 2019 04:45:43 PM MDT
Well if you only looking at price and depending on what you are using the gun for.

In our state the barrel length is too short for hunting so it would be for SD or personal protection. I would be honest and say no it's not worth the price delta.

In fact today I ran some close qtr drills from the holster strictly double taps center mass. I compared it with my Thunder Ranch model 325. The 325 was significantly better for a number of reasons. 45 amp softer shooting than factory 180 grain HP from the 10 and the TR has even a better trigger than the 610. Of course the TR is Customemshop gun so it should be better. but if I am carrying a N frame it would be TR more likely than the 610.

Just being honest here.

For carry I think the 3" Clapp is better than the big Smith.

Thanks, you've given me enough information to make an informed decision.  Much appreciated!


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Quote

TRP no good.  For $1800 it should be awesome.  Don't waste your cash. Spend <$700 and get Darth Vader's concealed carry weapon--the XDM!

Wait!  What?  They cost more than a Dan Wesson?  I had no idea!  Bought my RZ10 new for $450 less than that.


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Quote from: Ramjet on April 23 2019 09:55:34 AM MDT
I ran the following through both guns one then same loads through the other.

Here is my opinion;

Smith is N frame larger than the Ruger

Both hold 6-rounds

Both use moon clips.

I ran everything from 160 grain FMJ to 200 grain WFN cast GC. These are all top level loadings not the weak down loaded commercial stuff.

Felt recoil the Smith wins hands down the grip and weight of the gun made shooting even the big 200 grain cast easy to control and run. The little Ruger ran better and was more accurate with lighter weight projectiles. The Smith liked them all.

Single action the Smith again edge out the Ruger trigger broke clean and with less effort and was more predictable.

Accuracy in single action the Smith took the prize. I think that has more to do with the excellent single action trigger than anything else.

In double action the Ruger tended to print high on all but the lightest bullets.

The Smith 610 is a little tougher in double action due to the frame size and trigger reach.

The Ruger 3" seems easier to work in double action. Trigger reach is closer just for the record I have pretty big hands but just picking the gun up and putting it on target the Ruger was preferable.

I prefer the green fiber optic sight of Ruger.

I preferred the adjustable rear sights of the Smith.

The 610 is a really nice 10 and I think it edges out the little Ruger overall except with lighter projectiles the Ruger shines.

Both weapons have utility and of course being obsessed with the 10 it great to own both.

The Smith soaks up recoil really well and the trigger on the Smith is waaaaay better than the Ruger. The Ruger is longer and takes more effort to break. The Smith breaks consistently and the double action seemed lighter as well. The stroke for the Smith seemed shorter to me than the Ruger.

I was thinking of adding a Smith when I can find one in stock.  It's that or a second Wily Clapp.  Is the price delta worth it in your opinion?


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Quote
There's enough of a variance between the rim thickness of .40 S&W vs 10mm rounds to create a gap that can lead to light strikes.  The solution is to use a thicker moon clip with the Ruger GP100 when shooting .40 S&W.  The ones from TK work as advertised, but they're expensive at $80 for 10.  Ranch Products makes moon clips for the S&W 646 that will also work for all varieties of the 10mm GP100s.  They only cost $9 for 10, so that's a significant savings.  And they work with both .40 and 10mm.

Thanks for the link!


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There's a thread here on the Springer that takes it off my list.  Seems even after a trip back to SA it's not that accurate- sample of one though.  I'm partial to Dan Wesson, Ruger and Colt myself.  The single stack RIAs are reliable, many stories of HC issues too.  Currently, I'm carrying a Razorback, but an SR1911 and Delta Elite are on deck.

Currently, I've got a couple of RIAs and Fusions along with the DW, a Ruger and I picked up a used DE this weekend.


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Definitely always fun with a new toy.  Just picked up a Ruger 10mm last week, waiting on FP10 and dry weather!   Carrying my RZ most days.


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Quote from: terdog on January 23 2019 11:23:27 PM MST
Time to start a new adventure with another Dan Wesson 10. Since learning about DW announcing the end of the Valor Series, I felt that it was time to step up and get one. In 10mm natch. 

First things first. Since I'm not made of $$$, I had to sell my 10mm Razorback. She's been an awesome gun, never leaving me hangin. But, if I get the Valor, I don't feel that I need the Razorback.

Had it on Armslist for a couple of weeks, got a few lowball offers.
Monday I get a text from a local guy who was serious. We met tonight and finished the deal, and I'm sure that she's going to a great home.

So, the best price that I found was on GB from twogunjay. Last year I bought a DW  Valkyrie 9mm from him and the deal was very smooth.
Guess that I went back to that trough and bought my Valor from him.

I expect that he'll treat me just as good.
I'll keep y'all up to speed on the progress. I'm hoping to have it by this weekend.

I'm curious, why the Valor over the Razorback?


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Quote from: bulletpoints on January 15 2019 12:16:34 PM MST
I'm game for a Commander sized single stack 10mm. I just cant afford a custom gun in that configuration.

RIA MS?  Fusion?


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I love this handgun so much I'm considering getting a second one!


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Have you shot the 3" Ruger?  If so, can you compare it to the 610?


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Thank you AZ!


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Quote from: Azrckcrawler on May 19 2018 05:46:20 PM MDT
This should be the last update. What has been going on w/timeline -

4-5-18  I was confident that the problem with this weapon system was the buffer weight.  I had it feeding everything I could throw at it but was experiencing repeated case head separation even with Sig 180gr FMJ.  I sent this email off to TE -

-----Original Message-----
From: "Chris Villarreal" <chris@azrockcrawler.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 5, 2018 7:45pm
To: bobby@tactical-edgearms.com
Subject: RE: Problems feeding from magazine on RD10

Robert,

I sent you some pictures before I went on vacation a few weeks back but never heard back.  While waiting I have been doing some research and am wondering if the buffer that is included with this rifle could be part of the issue. I could not find a single vendor who recomends anything less than a 9-11oz buffer for 45/10mm blowback pcc's. New Frontier says 10oz min, from their website -

It is advised that you use a 10 oz or heavier buffer.  Lighter buffers aren't safe to use in a blowback system with larger calibers such as the .45ACP and 10mm, and they may not feed some types of ammunition reliably without the added weight.

Quarter Circle 10 says 9-11oz and TNW uses a 9.8oz buffer (and much stiffer spring).  I pulled the buffer from my RD10 and it weighs 2.9oz.

4-6-18 The response I received -
Chris,

We will get that extractor shipped out today. The buffer weight that they are using is for a full length AR-15 buffer tube, we use the smaller Maxim Defense tube. I'm not sure why you're having issues, we sent you a video test firing that weapon with zero malfunction, bullet setback or dented cases...

Please confirm the address for the extractor.

Thanks,

Robert Snyder CEO
The Tactical Edge, LLC.
O: (877) 219-2220
C: (931) 278-7775


4-8-18 was asked again to confim my address for the replacement extractor I requested back on March 18th. 

4-11-18 I had received no reply about a solution to get a heavier buffer in the weapon. I emailed Bobby @ TE and asked him to call me.  He did that morning and in that conversation I discovered they only tried one type of ammo (180gr S&B) and he verbally confirmed that they had put a lighter buffer in the weapon to get it to feed (2.9oz).  This explained why my instances of case head separation had gone up.

4-11-18 Received shipping label so the mfg would have the rifle back in their hands for the 4th time.  I outlined my findings and asked for a solution to the buffer problem. If I were to fix it I would have to buy a different brace, swap the buffer tube out for a rifle length buffer tube, then install the heaviest tungsten buffer you can buy which would have been about $400 in parts. I am not sure of the legality of putting a rifle length buffer tube onto a pistol arm brace.

4-15-18 Weapon is on the way back to TE.  I also sent this email.

Robert,

Please read this as I intend it to be read - respectfully.

I getting ready to send the pistol back.  Got back into town late Friday night and while traveling I had a lot of time to reflect on our conversation.  A $2079 firearm should work out of the box, period. I was willing to pay that price assuming your company had engineered a safe and functional weapon system.  I feel I have been more than patient throughout this ordeal (Paid for the pistol on 1-26-18) and have spent a lot of my own time and money experimenting with ways to make this weapon system feed better only to discover that the brace/buffer system is fatally flawed for this particular weapon system due to it's short buffer tube which does not allow for a heavy enough buffer for a 10mm chambering. Blowback guns need heavy bolts to hold the round in the chamber long enough for pressures to drop to safe levels period.  Choosing an AR pattern limits the weight of the bolt due to space constraints so the buffer comes into play to supplement the bolts mass to keep the chamber closed. As a gun manufacturer, you should know this, yet you installed an even lighter buffer in my pistol the second time you had it in an effort to make it feed better. I have enclosed, in the case, all the rounds that experienced case head failure after I received the pistol back after that buffer change.  Essentially you tried to trade operator safety for reliability or maybe you didn't realize the implications of lightening up the buffer.  Neither scenario is comforting from my point of view.   

I want to make sure we are on the same page. You will be getting the pistol back a 3rd time.  I would urge you to replace the extractor then chamber single rounds by hand and test fire the weapon.  Use a mix of 180-220 gr loads with the light buffer you provided to see what the system does. For the 180 gr loads use something in the 1250fps velocity range and compare the length of the brass that does not rip apart. Case stretch should be non-existent if the bolt/buffer weight are properly sized.

From there I see two problems that need to be solved with this 10mm weapon system-

Problem #1 -   The pistol needs a weighted buffer that can prevent the bolt from moving backwards until the chamber pressure drops to safe levels. I have researched and provided you with the formulas required to determine a safe buffer weight based on various weight 10mm projectiles in my previous email. You did not respond to that (maybe check your spam folder if you did not see it). In this email I attached a pdf of the section I added (and a zip with the source excel file) which clearly shows why you may not see case head separation with light 10mm loads using lighter buffers. In order for your weapon system to safely fire a range of SAAMI spec 10mm loads you need a bolt/buffer combo in the 3.2lb range. I am not sure how you will get to this weight with the brace you selected for this weapon system but that is the first hurdle.

Problem #2 - The pistol needs to feed a variety of projectile shapes. Based on all my conversations, emails and testing over the last few weeks it appears that the NFA lower design has some issues. The magazine angle as well as height in relation to the chamber is not optimal for feeding the long straight walled 10mm cases and can allow projectiles to get rammed into the lower portion of the barrel. Other manufacturers have added a different feed ramp profile as well as modified the lower for a different magazine release tab that allows the glock magazine to sit higher than your design. This higher magazine position does facilitate better feeding if you hold the magazine up and pull back on the lower portion while firing in my RD10. I would strongly suggest you consult some of your peers to solve some of these issues.  Rudy @ Macon Armory spends a good deal of his time making other manufacturers PCC's functional and was more than happy to share solutions to the problems I am experiencing.  I am sure New frontier Armory would have suggestions for the bolt/buffer weight.

If the above problems cannot be resolved to my satisfaction or you run into technical hurdles we need to discuss a refund of my purchase price or an exchange for one of your other weapon systems of comparable value.  I would like resolution by the 1st or 2nd week of May.  After that I am in Alaska for a few weeks which ironically was where this weapon system was supposed to be utilized in a predator defense role. As a consumer I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a new weapon system to load and run off the shelf ammo in a reliable fashion, especially one with a $2079 dollar asking price. The extent of my involvement should be lube/clean weapon, load the magazine, insert into magwell, drop the slide and the weapon should be ready to function.

Chris Villarreal

4-19-18 I get an email from TE questioning the "mods" to make it feed.  They also noted I had a new barrel installed. I am told they are dissasembling the weapon that day and they will provide another video showing it running flawlessley like before. I replied that I had taken it to a local shop who advised me to polish a light feed ramp into the barrel to prevent the rounds from nosing into it. I also mentioned teh mods to the BCG.  Ironically all the mods aided in feeding.

5-14-18 Had not heard anything in about a month.  I emailed TE asking for an update.  Am advised that since I modified the weapon the warranty was now void (so I guess they did nothing with it over the last month and didn't bother to inform me of this). They would require another $300 to replace the BCG and barrel (even though it already has a new barrel in it), then would get it feeding again.  I responded I would be interested but questioned how they were going to get a heavier buffer in the gun. I also mentioned I did not want to sink anymore money into it if the buffer tube could not be lengthened so a heavier buffer could be utilized.

5-16-18 TE replied

Chris,
We have added a heavier buffer and are firing your gun today. The buffer that we have installed is a pistol caliber specific weight manufactured by Maxim Defense to be used in their buffer tube. I assure you, when you receive your RD-10 back, it will function as it should and you won't experience any case head separation or split cases. We have ordered in Sig 10mm, Lehigh Defense and Buffalo Bore ammo to test in your 10mm. I would advise that next time you experience any issues with a weapon not to take it upon yourself to modify the weapon to see if you can "fix" the issue, but rather contact the manufacturer and let them resolve the issue. Once the weapon is ready to go I will give you a call to go over your invoice.


For some reason the definition of insanity popped into my head.  The whole doing the same thing again and again while expecting different results.  True I had modified my weapon but it was only after TE had it in their possession 3 times. I replied -

I would ask why you didn't do this the 3 other times you had the system, i.e. when you built it, then the 1st and 2nd trip back but it's just not worth my time anymore. You can't get enough weight in the proprietary length buffer tube that Maxim uses period. So unless you use a longer tube it is not going to work. Those PDW braces work great on AR pistols but that is a completely different operating system.   Please pull the parts you replaced and send me back what I had.  It does not need to be reassembled, just bubble wrap the loose parts in the case, I am just going to scrap this firearm and cut my losses.  Let me know what the shipping cost is and I will get you paid tomorrow.

Chris

I am not willing to dump another $300+ shipping into this thing using the same buffer tube. So far radio silence.

So I am chalking this one up as an expensive learning experience. I can re-use the brace, trigger and sights in an AR pistol build I have had on the back burner for a while.  Should be able to sell the side charging upper, barrel and hand guard.  I can't pull myself to sell the lower to anyone (the magazine fit/angle is terrible) so we may see what happens when it encounters a 660gr projectile.

Holy blowback!  So glad you didn't get a kaboom!  Thanks for the detailed posts!


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Quote from: Rick R on September 04 2018 08:37:01 PM MDT
2AinVA,

Howdy from WVa neighbor!  I'll probably end up with at least one 8 pk of the TK clips.  They are proud of them but with their reputation they might be a good option for serious carry.

I had good luck with the factory clips on an well lit, level, indoor range.  They just feel spindly and I'm not sure I'd trust them to retain loaded rounds if the going got rough.  I've ordered two 8 pks of the Ranch Products clips @ $24 delivered from Midway.

I also learned that 10mm rounds will work in a .38Spl speed strip. That makes for a compact way to carry six extra rounds.  Not the most "Tactical" reload but lots of extra ammo is never a bad thing, unless you're swimming...

Howdy!  I keep two loaded moon clips in a belt contraption designed for speed loaders.  I'm interested to hear how the Ranch clips compare.


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