Long Live the King!!

The Coonan pistol is a fresh redesign of their .357 magnum using a Colt type frame and many compatible parts.

However, it is a balls to the wall MONSTER when it comes to lock up and dwell time, because the Coonan locking system was originally designed for the .357 Magnum. They designed their new weapon, all ready with a cult following, to take the 10mm. In effect they  Downloaded  their weapon to accommodate the 10mm! The factory literature challenges you to not just use pussycat loads and "watch your recoil springs" but to use full power loads as much as you want.  The company brags that shooting the Coonan is a mind changing experience and revels in the basketball sized fireballs its weapons throw. 

Yes, I have ordered one as my carry weapon. Full Range report and disassembly and test review as soon as I can get my hands on her.



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Sometimes engineers stick to one theory or one mechanism simply because it works, sort of. They beef up parts here and there to fix breakages or weak points and generally ignore those who call for a redesign.

Case in point, the 10mm AUTO. Perhaps I should say, the pistols designed to shoot 10mm AUTO

The design of the gun and the slotted barrel lug were originally designed for the 45 ACP (See the Book "The Heir Apparent" ) until Jeff Cooper insisted on the 10mm cartridge. The cartridge was designed by Dornas and Dixon but accidentally "hot-rodded" twice, the original specs looking a lot like the 40 S&W than the 10mm Norma loading.

When the weapon (The Bren Ten) finally made it out the door, the die was cast. Colt decided it could make a 10mm as well and the rest was history. Most guns use the weak swing link of the 1911 to lower the barrel, thus dwell time (the time the barrel is locked together) is narrow and dependent on the mass of the slide to adjust for different loads. The 10mm Bren Ten was first designed as a 45 and then s t r e t c h e d to fit, even to the point of having both 45 ACP and 10mm  share the same magazines.

This error has been compounded (yes even in the EAA Witness) for every design of 10mm gun. Guns break or have a short life. Some gun makers will not make a government sized 10mm anymore due to functionality and parts life concerns, insisting on the 6 inch hogleg. Some will not make Commander sized 10mm's for the same reason. Some, like EAA, simply replace broken slides, broken barrels, broken slide pins
battered frames because it is easier than a redesign. Even the Glock 20, (Cursed be upon its name) shows this temperament with the notorious "Glock Smiles" and various Kaboom stories. The large frame Glock was 45 first and them S t r e t c h e d to make it work. The result was a good .45 gun and an OK 10mm

All recommend a diet of salad shooting, latte sipping loads rather than the meat eaters Underwood and others put out.

All Except the New King

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These break all the time, especially with heavy loads or lots of range use.

When you get your slide stop from EAA use it only for the range. The EAA action is tuned only for 10mm Lite ammo and will break the slide stop pin with a lot of use. This is especially disconcerting if you are in a self defense situation and it breaks.

Better option is get the pin by EGW that locks the weapon together but is only a pin, it does not lock back the slide. Locking back is really unnecessary because you would swap magazines in any lull in a gunfight anyway and you don't want the slide to lock back in a self defense situation, Right? It is really a range convenience . Use the factory stop for range, use the tool steel special pin for carry.

http://www.egwguns.com/eaa-tool-steel-slide-stop-pins/

Thank you all for commenting. Sources are GlockTalk.com, The Book "Stopping Power" by Evan Marshall. Police Shooting Review (Published by NYC Police Dept). and work I have done with the Silvertip. I am not an agent or paid by any firearms company and my opinions are my own.

P.S. It is my opinion that Winchester should be sued for false advertising over its home brand of Silvertip loaded ammo in 10mm that consistently shows underloading beneath published specs.

It is astonishing to me that Winchester isn't sued either for false Advertising or fraud. No chrono test I have ever seen has the factory silvertip shooting even close to 1290.

It would be the top stock factory hunting/self defense load, if it performed, but six inch barrels don't show 1200 fps and out of my 16 inch subgun, the load is sad. Compared to the Underwood 135, which exits at 2050, giving an energy close to 1220 ft/lbs and is my 10mm subgun standard load.

The bullet is great, I just wish the bullet was pushed to Winchesters advertised velocity.

Quote from: Captain O on December 23 2015 07:35:13 PM MST
The sig P220 reminds me of a cross between the S&W Model 1006 and the Bren Ten full-sized model. I think this pistol, or the Glock 20 would be the best pistol for the US Marines to carry into combat. Thread the barrel for a suppressor and you'd be "good to go".

Captain O

Hell Yes! A sub-gun in 10mm would be breath taking. Even with 180 grain FMJ, we are talking well over 700 ft/lbs of 10mm.

Hi All,

There has been a desire to build the ultimate combat version of a Ten, most notably the very weapon that gave birth to the cartridge in the first place was the first, The Bren Ten. Though the Bren Ten did not succeed in this task, it came very close, mostly because of the fanaticism of Dornus and Dixon.

As the cartridge has aged, it has generally agreed upon that in full power mode, it is the maximum amount of bullet/energy that will stay inside a large human while having a reasonable number of rounds at hand. Less # than the 9mm, though with much greater power, more than the 45 ACP though with a smaller caliber. Flat shooting to 100 yards in a pistol and in a carbine, capable of taking most North American Game (less Moose, Grizzly, Largest Elk, Polar Bear.)

As powder technology has increased the 10mm continues to climb in power. Underwood now loads 135 grain Noslers, pushing 1600 out of a 5 inch combat barrel, nearly 1700 out of a 6 inch hunting barrel and over 2000 fps out of a 16 inch carbine barrel, representing 1200 foot pounds of energy.  Even this tough bullet is reaching its limits.

Building guns that take in the desires and changing fashions of combat shooting has been a tough challenge and a few have risen to it. SVI makes the "Perfect 10", though they feel the swing link of the older browning link is too weak for a Government size or Commander size weapon. Glock makes their awful piece of plastic, yet it too can be modified to be a decent weapon.

One manufacturer  does a really good basic weapon that can be modified to be as close as currently possible to the perfect combat weapon. Tanfoglio, in their "Witness" line.

It is the careful selection of parts that will bring the Tanfoglio to its perfection, as the complete parts setup is not made by the factory. However, it starts out close and can be modified cheaper than having a gun made by Infinity or SVI. As the Glock is made of used tires and chewing gum, I will not consider a "custom" Glock.

Below I will trace that path the pilgrim must follow.

Start with the best Frame:

Tanfoglio has several ranges of "frames" of which to choose from. Steel, plated steel and a finish which is a heat treatment like French Grey. The best is their "elite" which have a hammer pin-pin and a stainless like finish. That is the one to go for. You want one with a upper that has the LDA (Bo-Mar like sight) mounted on the slide. This allows you now to customize with the difficult mods done for you already. My personal weapon (see pic 1) uses a "match" upper which is blackened, not offered as a factory weapon.

A good start is the Elite Limited Pro, which has the 4 3/4 long slide, the good frame and all the basic elements in place. Its flaws are its Elephant ear right hand only safety and its very large mag release. Both can be swapped out with very little effort. For the safety the factory sells an ambidextrous safety with small paddles, which is perfect and a standard mag release which will get rid of any possibility of the mag release getting bumped while in your holster.

Beyond this, there are Dawson Precision Sights and the option of converting the weapon to single action, full length guide rods, heavier springs, mag chutes, grips, etc. to custom tailor your weapon to you.

Now comes some hard choices. I personally like a single action but most like the double. However, I like to carry either Cocked and locked or Condition 3. That is done by removing the interrupter and rendering the pistol single action only. I prefer the single type of let off and I changed the trigger out to Tanfoglio's "Extreme" trigger, which is much like the Bren Ten's trigger. Using another Henning kit, I swapped out the firing pin for his longer one and reduced the hammer spring per his recommendation. Wow. Smooth, crisp, fast, accurate and full of 15 rounds of 10mm Goodness.



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One of the biggest problems with EAA guns is that the spring tunnel is too long. To increase the "throw" you can take up to 0.20 off the spring tunnel (Match or other LS guns) and fit a shock buff in there that will not get chewed up, assuming you are using a quality spring (18 lbs).

In my carry weapon, I have an Elite Limited Pro (converted to SA) using this mod. I have also done this mod in the Match version. The 18 lbs spring does not "stack" about 0.250 in so I trimmed the tunnel 0.20. The weapon functions normally and the extra "throw" of the slide allows it to slow down a little more before striking the frame. Also, the slide has a scalloped lower area to assist in getting the spring and guide rod combo into the slide. It acts as a Guillotine on most shock buffs (see pictures above). When you trim the spring tunnel, the spring tunnel face becomes flat, allowing a better impact with the shock buff. Please use care and a systems approach (Shock buff, 18 lbs spring, Slide mods together) rather than picking and choosing. 10mm is a monster and needs thick chains to be harnessed.

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Wow. this looks cool.

http://10mmautocombat.wordpress.com/

Turns a Mac-10 into a semi-carbine. Uses a heavy bolt (3.2 lbs) to make a 10mm blowback.

There is a Guy doing research on the 10mm in a carbine using the Lage upper, grease gun mags. Claims 30+ rounds for converted GG mags and has videos of ammo tests showing over 2000 fps muzzle. (Works out to over 1200 ft/lbs!). Being made for full auto, the thing is way overbuilt. Guy has really done his homework.

Website here: http://10mmautocombat.wordpress.com/

Quote from: gandog56 on February 16 2013 11:27:14 AM MST
I have yet to find a single model of a Glock that fit in my small hands. My 10 mm pistols are both 1911's which I am much more comfortable holding. And one of them is a 6" long slide.

Ok, that is orgasmic right there. Everything to really reach out and touch something and the sight radius to do it too. For close in, weapon gives you maximum horsepower of whatever load is most reliable to the weapon. Heavy slide means less beating up of the slide and frame and no weird and fancy stuff added to bring down the handsome lines of the gun. Really beautiful.

I like Henning's Stuff but I would never get the firing pin for a street gun. Disabling a safety is an increase in Liability. For Sure Jamal's Mammy is going to sue you for shooting her "baby" and the evidence of an "altered" firearm is just one more thing that makes you look like a gun nut. Same reason you never see 1911 guys get rid of their grip safeties even though it was designed for disabling the weapon in the event it was dropped from horseback (not kidding!).

Just IMHO

I agree with the .431-.429 for the Witness barrel. Very tight, which is probably why the weapon is so accurate.  Also, the case is nearly fully enclosed, even at the bottom of the feedramp (see Pic). To blow out this case, you probably would have the primer let go first, because the only exposed area is the solid case head itself. I have shot very high pressure ammo in my Witness (Double tap and Underwood) and have NEVER gotten the equivalent of a "Glock Smile". Also, Tanfoglio's machining is very precise. Not only do all three barrels for my Witness fit, fire and function without adjustment, but even after nearly a thousand rounds the breechface and locking lugs on both the slide and main barrel look new.

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Quote from: sqlbullet on November 20 2012 07:45:13 AM MST
Depends a good bit on how you reduce your grip.  Lots of the videos I see demonstrate the Glock handling fine, but if you watch, they still have the strong hand completely behind the gun, albeit with a light grip.

The real difference I see in videos like this one is the mass of the mount, or frame, compared to the mass of the actual gun, or slide.  Polymer guns are less forgiving of the type of grip this video shows, because the frame offers less mass to make up for the lack of positive pressure on the rear of the grip.  The XD does better because the grip safety requires a certain amount of grip or the gun won't fire.

It is not a reason to avoid a Glock, or any other polymer gun, but it is a reason to practice drills that simulate reduced strength in the shooting hands.  You can't discount the fact that in a self defense situation you may be injured, and therefore have your strength and mobility impaired.  So, find out what does and doesn't work with your carry platform.

I agree with this analysis. I would add that it is also a reason NOT to over-spring your guns. Recoil springs should be reduced so that your weapon will function with a weak grip in your weak hand. Assuming a injury, it will be difficult to clear a malfunction every shot if you install a 2400 lbs spring strong enough to hold up the front end of a 1968 Chevy Impala.

This was the problem that brought down the 45 Super. Unless you had HUGE spring pressure, a crushing grip and a shooter that had mass in the arms as well as around the waist, the weapon was unreliable.

The problem is having a reasonable functionality at the low end while still having the gun survive 20,000 rounds of Jimmies Super Colossal Blastum ++P+ Bear Killer Deluxe loads. Different Companies have worked the low power jam/high power battering problem different ways. Detonics in their /45/451 ScoreMaster used a Commander level 18 pound spring and a massive Stainless steel slide and a massive bull barrel to control slide speed and unlocking, while with their CombatMasters they simply mandated a firm grip. The Bren Ten used a regular slide weight, exotic rifling, long freebore and tossed the browning swing link for a long duration direct link like a Browning Hi Power. Glock uses a massive slide and barrel as well as a interrupter link to delay unlocking and uses their disposable polymer frame to control battering. S&W went both ways for their 10mm/40S&W guns, the Performance center delayed unlocking by modifying the stock unlocking time via cutting the underbarrel link and the production 10mm guns used a massive slide (which was carried over into the 4006 weapons as well) to work the problem.

Truly, You should be able to limp wrist your weapon and have it function well, which means reasonable spring weights. If not, consider a revolver.

I have my "HouseGun" (See Above) and I love it. The bullets scream out of the barrel (165gr Double Tap) at nearly 1700 fps for an Energy of over 1000 ftp. I am currently using an Olympic Arms blowback upper but plan on upgrading to a BB left handed gas unit as I am left handed and with the Oly upper the cases eject backward just past my ear.

As it is blowback, the upper needs breaking in and wants to be run wet with a heavy buffer and full power springs. The magazines are GG mags which I load to 35 rounds. I pinched the feedlips in with a vice till the cartridges directly face the chamber.  It is the perfect Urban carbine, fulfilling the idea Jeff Cooper had for a "Thumper". Mounted with a 1.5-4 power scope the weapon is lightweight, powerful and utterly reliable. With six mags on your belt and one in the gun, you can carry 245 rounds on your person. Add a light and it is perfect for those needing something to drive off looters. As the weapon is the same caliber as your sidearm, if your sticks run low, you can shift ammo from your spare pistol mags to your rifle. If either breaks (pistol or Rifle) then the surviving weapon is used till the other is repaired without walking around with useless ammo weight.

The 10mm totally changes personality as it increases energy. Instead of a powerful pistol round, it acts like a rifle round, penetrating cover with authority, punching through instead of glancing off. Cars, doors, even at range become transparent. For the One Caliber man, this is the way to go. The 45 ACP, while a good round, does not display this behavior in a Tommy gun or an UZI because it never gets the Energy. The 357 Magnum in a lever gun, loaded correctly has this same "personality change" as the 125 grain bullets go from 1400fps out of a revolver to 2000fps out of a Marlin lever gun.

As soon as I can, I am going to get some 200gr FMJ Underwood and chronograph it out of my AR. I also have a supply of Silvertips that I would like to push down the barrel to see what I can get them up to. If it is even close to 1700 with AA#7 or AA#9 or 800x then a screaming Silvertip in both pistol and rifle would be my favorite.

Attached rifle and Energy data as PDF's

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