I decided that I had enough money saved up a few years ago to retire... So "walking away" these days would either be GETTING a job or just dying... Probably the latter is more likely...

Was in SE Asia all of January of 2020... WRONG time to be in SE Asia... My wife and I caught "The Flu" and quarantined all of February... Not because we were *forced* to quarantine, but more of because we just felt so crappy that we didn't even have the energy to leave the house...

Here's the barrel length tests:

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/10mm.html

Now, IF someone was doing handloads and using a slower burning (rifle) powder, he might be able to see more velocity out of it.  It's one thing to do that on a single shot or bolt action firearm where you don't have to worry about the round cycling the action, but it's entirely different when you have to tune the round to reliably cycle the action.

Start with one of these and start perfecting your machinist skills:

https://www.gmriflebarrel.com/gp40-40-cal-10mm-23-x-1-raw-barrel-blank-1-16-twist

https://www.gmriflebarrel.com/40-blank-40-cal-10mm-20-x-1-raw-barrel-blank-1-16-twist

Quote from: my_old_glock on July 26 2016 09:36:26 AM MDT
9x23 Winchester maximum pressure is 55,000 psi (rifle pressure). I doubt the .960 has higher pressure. You might be able to use a regular 9x19 case and just load it to 9x23 length, but you would have to use a bullet that doesn't hit the rifling lands at that length.

That might be difficult with some bullets.  I loaded a Lee 358-105-SWC to max OAL in a 9x19 and this is what I got:



The unloaded bullets look like this:



As you can see, there's not much of the bullet sticking in the 9x19 case if you do this, even though it conforms to the 9x19 max OAL (1.169").  The 9x23 increases the max OAL to 1.300".  I doubt this bullet would even be *touching* the case if you placed the nose of it 1.300" away from the base of the brass.

Quote from: DM1906 on November 10 2015 04:32:46 PM MST
The .22TCM is based on the .223 Rem, but it's not only that simple. Whether using .223 brass for the .22TCM or 9x23, the neck has to be turned (quite a bit, you can't just "polish" it). Unless you ream the chamber for only that brass, they won't fit. If you do ream it, standard size won't fit.

I'm not really concerned about whether commercial ammo works since I'm a cheap bastard and I cast my own bullets and reload my own ammo.

I've managed to acquire a mid-size double stack RIA .22TCM/9mm combo and a full-size single stack one.  I'm still waiting on some parts to be available to finish the conversion of both of them.  The barrels that I decided to go with were the .38 SUPER barrels, but I will be making my brass from .223 brass.  I think that this means that my conversion is not a 9x23 or a .38 SUPER, but rather a .38 SuperComp.

Quote from: Intercooler on November 10 2015 05:55:40 PM MST
That's good to know! I'm glad people are able to reproduce the results based off the stuff The Shadow and myself do.

Actually, I have not shot it through a chrony yet.  I was just quoting the figures that you had put in your post.  What I do know though is that it has not blown up my G29, G20, nor my RIA M1911 10mm.  I also noticed that it was more comfortable to shoot in the M1911 than in the G29 or G20.

Quote from: Intercooler on November 10 2015 04:01:29 PM MST
Did you get the Underwood 220gr load data here? I see your results are close to mine.

Yeah, I was using your post as a source for that loading.

Quote from: sqlbullet on November 10 2015 03:44:39 PM MST
I would not want to try it in my Witness.  Though the gun is built like a tank, the firing pin will protrude a long way, and I bet it could knock a case off the extractor.

But in guns where that doesnt' happen, it should be fine.

I guess you could try it out with a round just loaded with just a primer.  Or a dummy round with no powder and a spent primer.

I bought the Lee (.41 mag) TL410-210-SWC for the sole purpose of casting some heavy bullets that I could resize to 10mm.  After going through the resizer, they don't have much in the way of the tumble lube grooves left in them, but that's OK as far as I'm concerned since I'm powdercoating them anyway.  Mine average around 216 gr with the 50:50 WW:Pb alloy I'm using.  This is supposedly the same weight that the Underwood 220s end up weighing.  The SWC pretty much becomes a WFN after resizing, but they feed in my G20, G29, and RIA 10mm without a problem.

Originally, I tried resizing a 240 gr .44 mag bullet to .41 mag and then to 10mm, but I ended up losing so much lead in the process that it wasn't really any heavier than when I started out with this .41 mag bullet.

I also use .40SW brass at 10mm OAL and pressure and have not had a problem with it in either the Glocks or the RIA M1911.

One of the problems with many of the free image storing sites is that if the image is not accessed periodically, they will delete the image.  If you have a Gmail account, you have access to Google Drive and you can store your photos there.  There is a way where you can post photos hosted from it.  I tend to do that with all my photos these days.  The thing to remember though is that it is not very friendly (from both a viewing and a bandwidth perspective) to those on small screens (e.g. phones) for you to post full resolution images in your posts.  It is a lot nicer if you post a thumbnail image (of around 320px max) and then just a link to a full resolution image.

EDITED 2021.10.02 -- Google has a habit of changing their system periodically and the "new features" often end up disabling a feature that you have previously relied upon.  The method that I was using when I originally created this post is no longer possible.

Many people used TinyPic.com, but they discontinued their service / went out of business.

Quite often, forums will prevent you from editing your previous posts after they are of a particular age.  Apparently that is not the case with this site since the post that I'm editing is nearly 6 yeas old.  I would like to thank the site owner for not restricting this since *some* of us actually like to add additional info to old posts, change the photos to valid links, or even correct wording / spelling on old posts that are possibly years old.

Quote from: sqlbullet on November 10 2015 01:22:24 PM MST
I gotcha.

In some guns with weak extractors, this might be an issue, and probably would not be a recommended practice.  But if it is working, more power to you.

When I first started doing it, I was doing it in the G20 and G29 since they supposedly had a stronger extractor design.  Eventually, I stumbled across a RIA 10mm M1911 to add to my collection and decided to give it a try with it, fully suspecting something bad to happen.  I was surprised that it worked without a problem.  Later, I saw how Johnny Rowland was saying that you could shoot .45 ACP in the M1911 that were converted to .460 Rowland.  As such, in that chamber, the .45 ACP was headspacing off of the extractor instead of the case mouth, just like if you were to shoot *normal* .40SW in a 10mm.  With the .40SW brass used to load 10mm rounds to 10mm max OAL, that is even less of an issue since in many cases, the bullet is resting on / very near the rifling grooves anyway.  Even if you just drop one of these rounds into a barrel, they don't fall as deeply as a normal .40SW round would fall.  In practice though, when you consider variations in case lengths, many semi-autos are probably headspacing off the extractor anyway, even when they are not doing something like this.

Quote from: sqlbullet on November 10 2015 12:25:17 PM MST
I don't shoot a bunch of 22lr and have a bunch of stockpile, so I have been checking.  I was under the impression that the shortage was abating.

Well, I haven't seen a brick of .22LR at Wal-mart in quite a few years.  They've even removed the label from the place on the shelf where they used to place it.  Last time I bought .22LRs, they were around $7-8 per 500-round brick.  The label that used to be on the empty Wal-mart shelf was for around $22.  That's still a bit cheaper than I can load quite .38s for, but if I put up a bullet trap that allows me to recover my lead, my cost to shoot goes down quite a bit.

Working out the costs with today's prices:

$23.50 -- TUSA SPM primers; 1000 ct; PowderValley
$103.00 -- Alliant Promo powder; 8 lbs; PowderValley
$1.25 -- lead ingots; various places -- eBay, reloading forums, etc

My smallest mold for a .38 / .357 is a 105 gr Lee SWC, so I'll base my calculations on that.  You could save a few more grains of lead (and cost) by going the round ball route though.  For this load, 2.5-3.0 gr of Alliant Promo would probably work and you might even be able to go lower in handguns.  I'll use 3.0 gr for the calculation though.

I'll base these numbers on 500 rounds since we are comparing the costs to a 500-round brick of .22LR.

$11.75 -- primers
$2.76 -- powder
$9.38 -- lead
$23.89 -- TOTAL to load, assuming lead CANNOT be recovered
$14.51 -- TOTAL to load, assuming lead CAN be recovered

A 0.360" round ball will weigh 70 gr, so the lead costs would be $6.25 instead of $9.38 if you were to switch to it and could not recover you lead.

One items that I did not factor in on the reloading costs is the cost of beer that is consumed while reloading or casting the bullets.  My experience is that it does add a bit of cost to the reloading process, but those beers would likely be consumed with any other hobby that you had that occupied the same amount of time.

Quote from: sqlbullet on November 10 2015 12:24:01 PM MST
With the bullets loaded that long I would expect a huge freebore is needed, lest the bullets just seat themselves deeper on chambering.

No, they are loaded to 10mm OAL, but in .40SW brass, and are being fired in a 10mm chamber, so there are no chambering issues.

Quote from: The_Shadow on November 10 2015 12:01:26 PM MST

Just a correction LongShot is Hodgdon's brand of powder...

Thanks... I guess I had a brainfart... Caffeine level not quite up to optimal for fully functional mental capacity yet today.

Quote from: The_Shadow on November 10 2015 12:01:26 PM MST
I have seen where many are loading the 40S&W cases as loaded at 10mm COAL's...Just as a side note the bullets can rub and roll up on the end of the chamber cut to leave carbon deposits and fouling.  This would need to be cleaned well before using the 10mm cases to prevent FTF stoppages as the longer 10mm casing encounters the last 1/8" end of the chamber.

Do you have a velocity measurement for your 210 resized as loaded on the 40S&W cases?

Once I verified that the .40SW brass seems to work without a problem in my RIA 10mm, G29, and G20, I seldom use my 10mm brass anymore, but thanks for the heads up.  I'll look at that area a bit closer after my next extended range session using the .40SW brass.

With the 50:50 Pb:WW alloy that I'm using, these work out to be an average of around 216 gr, the same as the Underwood 220 gr loads that I saw on this site (here).  According to that thread, this was a 1236 fps / 747 ft-lb load.  I'm not sure that is entirely correct though since for the energy to be 747 ft-lbs, you must be using 220 gr in the calculation instead of the 216.4 that he measured as the actual bullet weight.

Using a value of 32.174 fps for the acceleration due to gravity (G), the kinetic energy 1/2 * mass * velocity^2, after converting to grains simplifies to:

weight-of-bullet * velocity * velocity / 450436

Using 216.4 gr as the weight in the calculations, it should work out to be 733.94 ft-lbs.

If you reload, you can load some .38/.357 mag loads down to about 400-500 fps and they will be even more quiet than .22LR.  It's been so long since I saw .22LR ammo in the stores (at anything other than scalping prices) that I would not recommend anyone buy a firearm chambered in .22LR.  I would also recommend either a single shot or a revolver so that the focus is on the shooting and not just how fast you can make it "go bang" like many kids (and adults) are likely to do with a semi-auto.  Start them with a single-shot rifle first and then let them go advance to a handgun as they get older and you feel more confident in their safety awareness.

One of the next handguns on my wish list is a RIA .22 TCM / 9mm combo (double stack M1911).  I don't really need a 9mm M1911, but since the extra barrel and spring comes with it, I'm inclined to rechamber it for 9x23 and then use cut down .223 brass for it.  So, I guess that would make it more akin to the 9mm Super Cooper wildcat.  It is my understanding that the .22 TCM was based on .223 brass, so the extractor should work without a problem.

I'm not sure I would do the conversion on the G20 though.  Do you still have the same magazine capacity or did it get bumped up by 1 or 2?