About 5 years ago I converted my Glock 20 10mm to .460 Rowland by mounting a long slide with 6.6" barrel and LWD comp and testing Underwood's entire lineup.  Since that time My 10mm handguns have become safe queens, and I sold my Desert Eagle .44.  They no longer make sense compared to the .460R.  Underwood 185 gr XTP from the 34 oz G460R clocked 1,700 fps compared to 180 gr PMC .44 mag going 1,584 fps from the 72 oz DE.  I've since added a 1911 pattern Clark .460R conversion that is a pure joy to shoot and 100% reliable! I've put several hundred handloads through both pistols and they never fail to impress.  No point in pushing a 10mm when I can best it with ease with bullets up to 275 gr Hunter's HC, or Lehigh Defense 120 gr XD at a measured 2,013 fps from the big Glock!  My "mild" handloads are 185 gr RN at 1,400, and 230 gr RN at 1,300, which both guns digest without a hitch.  I can empty 8 rounds from my 1911 .460R as fast as shooting std .45 Auto from an unmodified gun, yet my 8 are carrying around 950 fpe per shot.
Anyone SERIOUS about making power from the 1911 platform should be talking .460 Rowland.  10mm who?  What?


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Most 357 Sig leaves a LOT to be desired.  Why run a bottleneck cartridge pushing a puny 125 grain slug when you can run a full-diameter ".40" with a 135 grain, 155 grain, 165 grain, or 180 grain option?  Also, unless you buy true performance ammo that you actually chronograph, chances are the crap you buy for the 357 Sig is barely more potent than the 9mm!

The 9x23's max pressure of 55K is impressive and worth noting!  As potent as the Dillion 9x25 appears it's WEAKNESS is the bottleneck case!  Bottleneck cases will ALWAYS have a problem holding the bullet in place during feeding and this could be catastrophic.  The 9x23 Winchester is the right answer even if the fickle American public never got it.  It has a super thick case wall that can hold when fired in non-ramped barrels - the reason for it's invention.
The current factory loads offered by Winchester are "mild" to say the least.  The cartridge can be fired from a Super chamber without issue and since tempered 4140 gun steel is good for over 120K pis, the factory .38 Super barrel will handle the round just fine.

I have an RIA .38 Super GI model that is pretty sweet.  It chews up the generic Super ammo and even 9mm ammo from the super barrel just fine, but when I slapped in a Wolff 18.5 lb. recoil spring and some Underwood "real" .38 Super loads, it "tweaked" the extended ejector causing slide binding!  It was easy to re-tweak the ejector, but clearly the 550 lb-ft of kinetic energy Underwood ammo was a bit stout for the 18.5 pound spring, and or (maybe) the "extended" ejector.  I suspect if one is shooting TOP Super loads one does not really need the extended ejector.

But what REALLY sets the Super apart is it's amazing operating reliability!  Due to the smaller diameter round, the round center line sits higher relative to the bore axis and so feed like grease through a goose!

And, in a pinch, one CAN load up magazines of 9mm and they fire just fine through the Super barrel....(shush....don't tell the "experts" they'll just tell you why it can't happen despite the fact that it does!)

But I have to say, the problem with the .38 Super is that even in top loads it's still 200 lb-ft of KE behind a proper 10mm load!  Yes it IS the equal of a short-barrel .357 Magnum, which should certainly catch some attention for those who study the numbers.

Quote from: kreane on February 18 2015 04:43:12 PM MST
Are the bugs worked out of the Gen 4 Glock 20's? Might pick up a Gen 4 for the slimmer grip. I just know that the Gen 3 is proven...

The Gen 3 "SF" model feels VERY comfortable in my size 7.5 hand!  No, you can't change backstraps, but if it fits your hand you don't need too!

Roguer:
A 1911 frame style will fit your hand perfectly.
A Glock G-20 will give you maximum benefit from the 10mm cartridge.

A 1911 is going to hold around 9 shots.  the Glock holds 16 shots in a free State and 11 shots in a slave State.

You can buy replacement barrels for your Glock from Lone Wolf Distributors for just over $100.

Also...newer Glocks have LESS exposed case head over the feed ramp, which means automatically buying an aftermarket barrel isn't necessary.

My LWD barrel has exactly the same unsupported area as does the OEM barrel, yet has a tighter chamber which tends to concentrate pressure over the feed ramp.  A larger chamber allows the ENTIRE case to expand before pressure concentrates over the feed ramp.
My Glock 29 has VERY little case head exposed over the feed ramp...no need to re-barrel unless I want a longer one.

GLOCK was there for the 10mm when all others deserted ship...that ought to count for something when deciding which you will choose.  Not only has Glock been faithfully building a 10mm, the gun they've been building has PROVEN to be totally up to the task of handling the full-bore 10mm round.  I'm not talking generic mid-range grap that makes maybe 550 lb-ft of KE, I'm talking the REAL loads that push 650-800+ lb-ft of KE.

The only mod you "need" for a Glock is an aftermarket recoil spring system since the base gun is designed to function with all 10mm loads from mild to wild.  However, top loads demand a heavier recoil spring for optimal performance.

The Glock SF is the "right" answer to a 10mm polymer frame, and the 1911 pattern will always feel smaller in the hand, but also gives up internal shot capacity.

Glock tends to be less expensive, yet you can purchase EVERYTHING for a Glock in the aftermarket including a long slide to fit a 6" barrel, 6.61" barrel for compensator fitting, and all manner of aftermarket stuff....9x25 Dillon caliber swap, .38 Super caliber swap, 9mm caliber swap, even .40 S&W caliber swap (you don't really need since you can shoot .40 S&W just fine from a 10mm barrel).
If you want to expand the calibers you can buy a .45 ACP slide from LWD for $175 and barrel up for .45 ACP, .400 Corbon, .40 Super, .460 Rowland.

The Glock has 33 total parts that you can strip down to the smallest component in just a few minutes.  You can replace and upgrade every part.

Of course you can upgrade MOST parts for any 1911, but not as cheaply as the Glock.

Anybody know why we generally hunt deer with .308's, .30'06's, .270's, and such?  It's because deer - even "little" 200 pound ones, don't know when to lay down and die!  So, we use the principle of OVERKILL!  We hit them with a round that produces gruesome wounds that cause the animal to drop pretty quickly...and even then the outcome isn't certain if the shooter is off in his or her aim!

Does any State ALLOW someone to go deer hunting with a .45 ACP?  If so I want to meet the 'tards that approved it.  Regardless of hype and wishful thinking, the .45 ACP in standard loads hits with a whopping 350-400 lb-ft of kinetic energy...and worse, it's going WELL subsonic which eliminates any and all advantages CLEARLY evident in the strike of a supersonic round, and quadruply-so of the strike of bullets traveling at mach2.5+!  Add to this that FEW brands of "performance" ammo actually chronograph out to their published numbers.

The "lowly" .223 55 grain "ball" round from a 16" barrel absolutely WILL put a man down in his tracks with anything better than a superficial strike for a couple of very good reasons backed up by something known as physics.  That tiny bullet is traveling something like 2,900 fps...almost 3x the speed of sound which means the bullet is AHEAD of the shock wave, and it's the shock wave that creates the entry damage!  Then, upon impact that 55 grain slug, instantly yaws violently, and snaps in half at the cannelure, each moving divergently to extend the damage, and generally dumping most if not all of it's approximately 1,200 lb-ft of kinetic energy into the recipient.  THIS is why you carry an M-16 to a rifle fight and not a .45 ACP!  THIS is why the guy in the '86 Miami shootout took out an entire FBI field office before finally going down to HIS "14" some-odd hits."  In that little party the 9mm was blamed (certainly they would never blame the lack of tactics and preparation), and yet, the 9mm then, and the 9mm today is exactly the same...the SAME 9mm the FBI now claims is the cat's meow!  Is anyone REALLY following their lead?

The problem really?  The 9mm is a 330-400 lb-ft of KE round....the ballistic EQUAL to the .45 ACP.  So they eventually landed on the .40 S&W but in a loading that is....wait for it, the ballistic EQUAL of the first two!  Factually, all the rounds can be boosted...the 9mm can match loads up to about 500 lb-ft with traditional projectiles, the .40 S&W can push over 600 lb-ft with traditional projectiles, and the .45 ACP can be boosted to a little over 500 lb-ft as long as it's being kept somewhere close to the ".45 ACP" pressure loadings.

While the 9mm and .40 S&W are the fastest, neither is much above the SoS and unless we're talking +P, no .45 ACP rounds are...with "traditional" bullets.  (Liberty makes a nifty 78 grain copper round that I personally chronographed at over 1,900 fps from a Colt Defender 3" barrel!  THAT is a bullet that will act "most like" the strike of a .223 round, and completely spend over 600 lb-ft in the recipient.  Liberty also makes the round in 9mm and .40 S&W, yet as with all rounds that depart too far from the madding crowd, they are limited in overall application.

Before the semiautomatic pistol craze took the country by storm, the .357 Magnum was considered the king of handgun rounds, and for excellent reason.  Even in watered down factory loads, when given enough barrel, the .357 Magnum can exceed 700-800 lb-ft of KE and IS an effective "man-stopper" with the appropriate weight bullet.  NOTE I am not talking about snubbies with no barrel and underloads for the recoil sensitive.  I'm talking about true, brute-force .357 Magnum loads.

Both the .41 and .44 Magnum eclipse the .357 Magnum by a wide margin and both are not simply effective man-stoppers, they are effective man-KILLERS and for very good reason - they exceed the minimum threshold of KINETIC ENERGY with large, relatively heavy slugs that create massive tissue destruction and turn any bone they bump into into secondary fragments!  In the medical business one sees a LOT of .22LR, .38 Spl, 9mm, and even .45 ACP "wounds come into an emergency room, yet one SELDOM sees anyone "wounded" with the larger rounds in an ER...why?  Because they generally go straight to the morgue without the need to pass go!  And let me qualify what I mean by "larger" rounds...I mean MORE POWERFUL rounds!  Despite the .45 ACP's diameter it isn't really a "powerful" round...ballistically equal to the 9mm, so yes, if you feel happy carrying a 9mm you're as well "powered" as the guy who chooses the .45 ACP.

NOBODY is going to take a .44 Magnum round to the face, or forehead and need "more" before they stop....NOBODY!  That round will explode the skull and evacuate a significant portion of the contents, without which, the person simply cannot continue their animal blood lust.

Enter the 10mm.  The round Jeff Cooper helped create and the bungling FBI helped to almost kill.  In "real" loadings the round is capable of 650-850 lb-ft of KE and that's before we get into longer than factory barrels.  A "mid-range" load pushes a 180 grain slug at 550 lb-ft of KE which is "only" 200 lb-ft BETTER than the "common load" .45 ACP!  A G-20 stoked with 16 rounds of Underwood 155 grain XTP, EACH round delivering a measured 800+ lb-ft of kinetic energy measured 10 ft from the muzzle...approximately TWICE the MEASURED KE of the .45 ACP Gold Dot that almost certainly did NOT chrono out to it's hyped velocity claim.   As it happens this particular 10mm load is VERY similar to the old .357 145-158 grain loads of yore except from the autoloader you get 2 shy of 3X as many shots and that's before you snap on a +2 Base extension!  THIS is the round and the POWER load the FBI claimed they wanted and needed, then instantly "spec'd" a load less than HALF as powerful!

Do I have confidence that the 10mm will blow open a human skull....absolutely...at over 1,500 fps and 800 lb-ft of KE....yes, yes I do.  Do I have confidence in it's ability to deliver serious wounding and "stopping" power?  YES...it's ABSOLUTELY BETTER BY FAR than ANY of the current "police" calibers!  Proof?  Proof is the RESURGENCE of the 10mm as it has been discovered by hunters and sportsmen who want a potent backup handgun.  10mm Hog-hunting is quite popular...think Hogs just lay down and die with a harsh word?

Sadly there is SO MUCH disinformation out there that it's no wonder so many people are completely bamboozled.

As for the "myth" of stopping power....HANDGUN stopping power at that, YES IT EXISTS just as rifle round stopping power exits, only, you have to be shooting a cartridge "big enough" for the animal you need to stop!    If you don't "believe" in stopping power then WHY grab a 12 gauge?  Why not everybody just run around with .22LR's and "make each shot count" for the instant CNS stop?  Because we all KNOW that's silly.  The problem is rounds like the 9mm and .45 ACP, and even the .40 were never built to "STOP" anyone...but to produce a wound...a "casualty" and as such they are of limited "power."  Growing up in the country, someone showing up with a .45 ACP or 9mm to carry out in the woods for use against predator attack, or for "offensive" use as required, would have been laughed clean out of the county!  EVERYONE knew it was ludicrous to carry such a gun over a good .44 Magnum, or heavy loaded .357 Magnum.  Well, the 10mm is ACTUALLY the modern "equivalent" of the old revolver magnums.  The problem is the revolver cartridges don't translate well to autopistols....which is why the 10mm is a great round.

There IS another round....for those enamored of the .45 diameter and want an autoloader.  The .460 Rowland!  Now THAT is a serious hand cannon that delivers the goods!
In my G-20 frame with LWD Long slide and 6.61" barrel with recoil comp and 24 pound spring, the .460R slammed out Underwood's 185 grain jacketed at 1,750 fps MEASURED! (By comparison my 72 ounce, 6" barrel Desert Eagle .44 Mag with PMC 180 grainers clocked just 1,575 fps for 992 lb-ft of KE).  That's a whole lotta suds and NOBODY is going to soak one of those up and beat his chest for more!  That's 1,258 lb-ft of KE from a 34 ounce gun that can bang out all 11 in less than 2 seconds with amazing control (thanks to the effective comp).  A 255 grain Underwood HC clocked over 1,350 for just over 1,000 lb-ft of KE...in a hard cast slug that will penetrate...and it feeds perfectly every time.  But the problem is...the gun does have "some" kick...about equal to the 10mm, which I personally find quite pleasant in the Glock frame, but more than most seem able to tolerate on their little beaters.

So why do I carry any of the smaller calibers?  Because it's all about convenience versus probability.  The probability I'm gonna need to shoot someone is VERY LOW, so hey, I grab my Defender, or my Sig P228, or My S&W M-642, or my Beretta Tomcat, or my Kaur P-380, or even my Phoenix Arms HP-22!  BUT...if I KNEW I was headed out into a gunfight I'm sure I'd grab something a bit larger....like my Linberta semiautomatic 12 gauge with 9 rounds of Brenneke rifled slugs on tap, or my AR-15 with a Magpul 60 round drum snapped in place, or for sheer meanness, my S&W M-500 6.5" with 380 grain half-inch "slugs" making just over 2,000 lb-ft of KE....that will ABSOLUTELY be a "one shot stop" on a human torso!  You SHOW me the man who can take just ONE...and I'll give him another!

I get a little tongue-in-cheek, but in reality it's sad that ANYONE ever walks out of the house thinking their 9mm or .45 ACP is even likely to put someone down with a single hit - yes it CAN happen, but it's not likely.  So then what really IS the point of carrying a gun with 8 rounds, or even 14 rounds when it takes ALL of them to put one dude down?  For the same size and bulk as a G-21 simply SWITCH to the G-20 and DOUBLE the power?  Why not?  Because of deliberate disinformation that is agenda driven by those seeking to attain and hold some degree of power or perceived knowledge.

As I said at the beginning, ANYBODY who is using the FBI's choices as a model for their own...<peels of laughter erupt>!

And for the record, my "carry" guns are almost always either my Glock 20, stoked with Underwood's 140 grain solid copper "penetrator" rounds, or my G-29 carrying Underwood's excellent 155 grain XTP round that clocked 700 lb-ft of KE from the 3.7" barrel.  It carries a 15 round mag with a grip extender...except for barrel, they're about the same.

Quote from: Lunker on September 29 2016 10:13:21 AM MDT
I just shot my G29 with stock barrel and had a few failures to feed with DoubleTap 200grain wfn hardcast lead bullets. I could usually clear the problem by tapping the rear of the slide. I thing the wide, flat profile is causing the hangup. No problem with the 200 grain fmj bullets. Anyone else have problems feeding this ammo in their G29 stock barrels? Switch ammo or get a KKM barrel?
Thanks


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Hardcast won't feed as "slick" as do jacketed bullets, and this sucks some of the feeding energy out of the slide and recoil spring.  If you are shooting anything more potent than the mid-range loads in the 550 fpe range, you should switch to a 23-24 pound non-captive recoil spring...available from Lone Wolf Dist.  This not only makes your gun more reliable with the hotter ammo, it also delays slide opening which translates into smaller ES numbers, greater velocity, AND, greater closing force!  This will eliminate the slide being just shy of fully locked up due to the lower weight factory spring combined with the captive guide rod.

The OEM captive guide rod has a very small slide closing force.

Bear in mind that when you're shooting "real" 10mm loads from a G-29 the entire reciprocating system mass is considerably less than that of a stock G-20.  Also, even with the heavier spring install you can still shoot mid-range loads just fine, and even generic 40 S&W loads without swapping out springs.

Quote from: Turo on July 06 2012 09:08:39 PM MDT
Redline's question is the same as mine.  Even with very light loads, my stock G20 barrel produces case head expansion that is on the upper limits of what people consider "stopping" points.

Unfortunately case head expansion is not a valid indicator of total pressure.  A larger than spec chamber - GLOCKS, will allow a brass case that flows like plastic under high pressure, to expand to meet the chamber wall, then "spring back" as brass does.  This results in a "measured" greater than recommended case head expansion yet has in reality told you NOTHING about total pressure.  The case can ONLY expand to the limit of the chamber.  Different alloys of brass will result in different "rebound" or contraction amounts of the brass...so total case head expansion tells you nothing.  A fully flattened primer tells you a LOT more....as does a "smeared" primer that indicates the slide started unlocking even before the spring-loaded firing pin could get out of the way....except in a Glock or XD which has a spring HOLDING the firing pin forward as the slide cycles!

Quote from: angryGTS on April 28 2016 08:10:26 AM MDT
Hello everyone! 

Well I am finally getting into reloading and just ordered a Lee hand press.  I went with the hand press because me and my wife will be moving soon and most likely will be in an apartment, so there will be limited space which sucks because I really wanted a Hornady LNL press but I can upgrade later.

Anyway, I also picked up some of the required stuff for loading but still have to order some Starline brass and bullets.  My Lyman 49th book should be here today so I can get some ideas. 
Are there any recommended supplement books I should order or check out that has loadings for 10mm to cross reference, right now I have Long Shot powder and CCI 300 large pistol primers, so any loading with this combination would be helpful.  Oh yeah I am going to be picking up some 165 grain gold dots and 180 grain XTP.  For now these will be for personal defense, I know the Long Shot is a slower burning powder so I may pick up the 180 grain gold dots so I don't have such a big muzzle flash.  I do want to eventually pick up some Power Pistol too.

I am a research freak but I am sure there are things I have missed before going with reloading.  Any advice or ideas would be much appreciated, thanks! 

Edit:  I forgot to mention I have a Gen 4 Glock 20 with stock barrel.  May pick up a KKM or LWD though.

The 10mm is a superb cartridge that even yet has not been recognized for what it brings to the power table.
The Lee Hand Press is just fine for "take your time" reloading, which is really the best way to reload, especially when crafting top loads because it breaks down all the processes and gets you "hands on" with the brass and the powder charging portion.
There is no mystery to hand loading the 10mm.  The key is picking the right powder and probably the best place to start for a Glock 4.6" barrel is AA-7 which was created for the 10mm.
Since the Glock's ramped barrel leaves a tiny crescent of unsupported case head, be mindful that under pressure, brass flows almost like a "plastic" and can give way...having said that, recently produced Glocks seem to come with much smaller areas left unsupported...I have the OEM barrel in my G29 because it has very good case head support...I won't say "full" but it's pretty close.  As for aftermarket barrels...that can be iffy...I have a Lone Wolf 5.15" Tactical for my G20 that has a significant unsupported area over the ramp and when firing top-loaded Underwood ammo, I've seen "Glock smiles."  On the other hand, my Lone Wolf 6.61" .460 Rowland barrel for my G20 (with LWD .45 LS), has FULL case head support!
Speaking of barrels....with the 10mm, an inch makes a LOT of difference in ballistics!  I've seen a full 100 lb-ft of KE difference between my 3.7" G29 barrel and 4.6" G20 barrel, and a noted difference between the LWD 5.15" versus stock 4.6".  This is the genesis behind the evolution of the G40 6" barrel 10mm...because users figured out a long time ago that a 6" barrel really extracts a lot more out of the 10mm cartridge!  You can see 180 grain bullets pushing 800 lb-ft of KE from long barrels and you don't "need" a long slide to get there...just drop in a LWD 6" barrel...or even buy a 9" barrel and slice it down to a more manageble 7" length from a factory slide.
A heavier recoil spring helps retard breech opening which also boosts velocity.  A longer barrel also gives you more velocity at lower powder charges which keeps your brass "young."

Be aware that any brass with a bulge where it was unsupported is not suitable for reloading.  The brass case at that point has become thinnned, and even when fed through a sizing die will still have a weakened section that could blow-out if it happens to align over the feed ramp on the next loading.  The idea of using a "bulge buster" die is to squeeze in that small area not normally resized with a conventional shell-holder and die setup, but it still isn't a corrective action for a grossly bulged case.

The 10mm is by far the BEST OTC, OTS, OEM, factory auto pistol "magnum" round of the latter portion of the 20th, and first portion of the 21st century.  Being a straight walled case it has a proven functional track record as opposed to various upstart shouldered pistol rounds such as the .400 Corbon, .40 Super, and 9x25 Dillon, and even the anemic .357 SIG.  The only real competition to the 10mm in the Glock platform is the .460 Rowland, and even here...the Rowland demands a compensator...and longer, heavier gun that only beats the 10mm by a few hundred fpe in the same length barrel.
Thanks to companies like Underwood and Buffalo Bore, full-power loads are within easy reach, and one need not push their hand loads to obtain excellent performance....though one CAN if they so chose.

Always start with the heaviest spring you have....22# is good and work down from there.
It also depends on what type of 10mm you are shooting....the world has FULL HOUSE 10mm which needs maximal spring rates, and mid-range which can live okay with middle-weight spring rates.  If you are shooting any of the "generic" OTC 10mm ammo you can get by with 18# but if you are planning to shoot real performance 10mm such as Underwood you should go with a 22# to start.

Interesting because my RIA's have been stellar performers....my .45's and my .38 Super only began to complain when I shot super-hot Underwood ammo out of her!

I can't imagine Glock being purchased by Beretta...maybe the OTHER way, but Glock basically "owns" most of the handgun market world-wide...they have ZERO reason to sell, and are probably "bigger" economically speaking than Beretta.

How many PD's have adopted the .44 Magnum?  Yet it manages to be a perennial best seller! How many PD's are currently supporting the .357 Magnum?  .41 Magnum?  .500 Magnum?
The FACT is, these rounds retain a loyal following OUTSIDE of any "po-leece" contracts!

The .44 Magnum has NEVER needed po-leece support to thrive and neither does the 10mm!  It's time people stopped considering, or expecting some official police agency support to make the 10mm viable...it's NEVER going to happen, but what WILL happen...what HAS happened, is a generation raised on autoloading pistols has "rediscovered" the FULL POWER 10mm as an adjunct and possible replacement to the .357 Magnum and.44 Magnum in the hunting field...and yes, even the self defense field.
The current popularity of the 10mm owes NOTHING to "cop land" and EVERYTHING to "sporting land"!

Buckeye,

I own four RIA's.  Three GI models and one Tactical.  One of the GI models is in the MOST EXCELLENT .38 Super!

I have yet to have a malfunction with the three .45 ACP chambered pistols....probably have 500+ rounds downrange from each.  The .38 Super is actually the SUPERIOR pistol when it comes to chambering due to the round sitting higher relative to the bore axis, but it did recently experience a problem while shooting Underwood's somewhat "hotter" than normal loads...the extended ejector got "tweaked" enough to cause "drag" when the slide cycled.  I reshaped the ejector and the gun works fine but I'm not sure this is a problem with RIA specifically and here is why:  MOST modern .38 Super ammo is loaded BELOW 9mm spec...so it's pretty anemic.  Thus, MOST modern .38 Supers come with 14# springs and extended ejectors to insure reliability.  With Armscor .38 Super FMJ the RIA GI never bobbled, but when it had to handle a round delivering some 200 lb-ft of KE more I'm not terribly surprised the extended ejector got tweaked.  I really should have bumped up to an 18# spring when I started shooting a load substantially more powerful than the "generic" loadings.

As for my .45 ACP models...they've shot it all...everything from mild to wild handloads, to "hot" +P ammo and to this very day have not ONCE demonstrated a malfunction!  Maybe I got lucky 4 times but I tend to think RIA is putting in the extra effort to impress its market.  BTW the .45's don't make use of extended ejectors.....and they feel as if they have up-rated springs....like 18# versus 16.

I think RIA is making VERY good guns that will hold up quite well, but I have also seen their prices starting to climb as more people realize this.