https://youtu.be/SpYqz7EVZ-0
a true fact 😀
Hahaha. Whoda thunk it?? :o ;D ;D
CW
I read that the 40 Short&Weak was made by cutting down the 10mm for those that couldn't handle the recoil, I shoot both.
Quote from: tunnug on June 29 2020 11:32:22 AM MDT
I read that the 40 Short&Weak was made by cutting down the 10mm for those that couldn't handle the recoil, I shoot both.
More accurate to say that the FBI recognized that they could get the same terminal performance on bipeds by downloading the 10mm 180 grain hollow point from 1300 fps to 950 fps, while simultaneously reducing recoil and allowing much faster follow-on shots. Smith and Wesson realized there was no need for the long 10mm case and associated large pistol frame with the load the FBI required, so they shortened the case and named it the .40 S&W.
People love to say that they "couldn't handle the recoil", but that's inaccurate. The reality is they recognized that the superior ballistics didn't compensate for the slow rate of accurate fire the recoil mandated, thus full-house 10mm loads were less lethal in a gunfight than reduced 10mm loads or .40S&W loads.
Actually, neither of those aligns with the facts.
The 10mm was included in the FBI tests because one of the techs happened to have a Delta Elite. And the downloaded ammo was used because said tech was hearing that full power Norma 10mm ammo was cracking Delta Elite frames. So he handloaded the ammo he was willing to shoot in his gun. That ammo happened to spec in with a 180 grain JHP moving 950 fps. That load passed the tests with flying colors
S&W and Winchester at the same time were already developing a 40 caliber cartridge. S&W had been working on this idea for nearly a decade. The fact the specs lined up with the FBI 10mm load was serendipity.
Reports of agents not liking the recoil of the big 10 were grossly exaggerated. All the more so when you consider they moved from 1076's loaded with FBI spec 10mm ammo to Glock 23's loaded with FBI spec 40 S&W ammo loaded to the same ballistics spec. Last I checked physics, same momentum in a lighter gun equals more free recoil, not less.
Agents didn't like the 1076 for two reasons. First, it was a big, heavy gun to carry around compared to previous options and the new tupperware options. Second, due to the FBI mandated changes to the 3rd Gen Smith fire control group, the guns were known to end up out of time in a way that would lock the gun up until a gunsmith could take it apart. If they had been issued Glock 29's (not available until 1997) chances are they would have had few complaints.
Just goes to show how much a disservice those 7 paragraph summaries on the "history" of 10mm we see in magazines and online really do.
Good video though. Thanks for your efforts AB.
Actually, full power 10mm ammo never had made issue to FBI agents. Sqlbullet is correct in that a personally owned Delta Elite was used to test the Norma loads. The FBI Marksmanship Training Unit determined that the full power loads would be too much for the average FBI agent to handle. Thus the load was watered down and then issued to agents. This ammunition is featured in our "10mm Pull Down" section. From there you know the history of the .40 S&W.
This is as according to my law enforcement contacts who were in contact with FBI MTU agents during the time.
SO MUCH misinformation its astounding the "truth" can even be found. The 40 hate rund deep and wide.
Its a caliber "better" then some not as "good" as others. But 100% depends upon the scale you use. ;)
I like the caliber allot. But I shoot allot. It gave me ballistics my 45 claimed in a much smaller
Lighter gun all with more capacity. Whats not to love there! ;D I owned one since about 6 mo after the first gen Glock 23. Started carrying a 23 when the had the mid gen 2 upgrade. Still have that 23. Sold off the first gen1 but found another some years back and grabbed it. Then bought a gen4 23 too. I still Like My gen2.5 The most in a 23. But my G35 Gen4 is my all time fav Glock. (Next to my Stock G29) Its been heavily modded. But will never be carried its my comp pistol.
I have bought four diff makers bbls and shot all the gens factory bbls tested all this unsupported chamber nonsense more (as much as) anyone should have too. Frankly I see many more 10mm's "smilin" brass then all 40's combined!! But thats cause the top loads where being searched for.
People love to hate on things and love to be in the majority. (How Many sports fans jump on board with a winning team just before playoffs ???) :o ;D :P.
It was a good video! I commented to the neg 40 comment and understand one "blew up" on Chuck. (Sorry man) But the bad glock barrels where fixed decades ago... With all the brand new shooters about today we dont need be poisoning there minds with our prejudices. ESP if unfounded today.
CW
Edit
Great write up, Thanks CW!
On another note, this video makes me think that we might be better off carrying a solid copper round like the Buffalo Bore Mono Metal Dangerous Game load. Less deformation and more penetration may be the name of the game (no pun intended).
Edit: This one you tested went through the dinner plate and five water jugs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvdBl4HFRsE
Quote from: 4949shooter on July 01 2020 03:16:39 PM MDT
On another note, this video makes me think that we might be better off carrying a solid copper round like the Buffalo Bore Mono Metal Dangerous Game load. Less deformation and more penetration may be the name of the game (no pun intended).
Edit: This one you tested went through the dinner plate and five water jugs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvdBl4HFRsE
I don't believe that the solid copper bullets provide any advantage over hard cast lead at 10mm velocities. If anything they provide both less mass and less room for powder. I've got Rim Rock hard cast bullets that I split out of hard, dry Douglas Fir logs, and aside from the rifling marks you could reload them and shoot 'em again. Nothing living is nearly as hard as a ceramic plate...people talk about how hard bone is, but it really isn't very hard at all. Dense and slippery...yes, but not hard. Meat cutters run bones through bandsaws day in and day out...think about running a dinner plate through a butchers' bandsaw. That ain't going to work.
The ceramic plate is a good way to save on water jugs, but it doesn't accurately represent anything you'd find in nature.
Quote from: Muskrat on July 01 2020 07:26:27 PM MDT
Quote from: 4949shooter on July 01 2020 03:16:39 PM MDT
On another note, this video makes me think that we might be better off carrying a solid copper round like the Buffalo Bore Mono Metal Dangerous Game load. Less deformation and more penetration may be the name of the game (no pun intended).
Edit: This one you tested went through the dinner plate and five water jugs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvdBl4HFRsE
I don't believe that the solid copper bullets provide any advantage over hard cast lead at 10mm velocities. If anything they provide both less mass and less room for powder. I've got Rim Rock hard cast bullets that I split out of hard, dry Douglas Fir logs, and aside from the rifling marks you could reload them and shoot 'em again. Nothing living is nearly as hard as a ceramic plate...people talk about how hard bone is, but it really isn't very hard at all. Dense and slippery...yes, but not hard. Meat cutters run bones through bandsaws day in and day out...think about running a dinner plate through a butchers' bandsaw. That ain't going to work.
The ceramic plate is a good way to save on water jugs, but it doesn't accurately represent anything you'd find in nature.
The solid only penetrated one more jug than the hard cast. Not a huge difference by any means.
Personally I don't think you can go wrong with either.
Either are probably fine, though it's a good idea to shoot a few hundred cary rounds per year to ensure reliability, and the solid copper rounds do cost a bit more...for no advantage that I can see.
I would like to see reports from real shootings in the field. This will tell if one round is advantageous over the other or not.
But I have to admit, the extra disruption to the hard cast bullet caused by the higher 10mm velocity bothers me.
Quote from: 4949shooter on July 02 2020 04:00:20 AM MDT
I would like to see reports from real shootings in the field. This will tell if one round is advantageous over the other or not.
But I have to admit, the extra disruption to the hard cast bullet caused by the higher 10mm velocity bothers me.
I don't know...field reports are spectacularly random and entirely anecdotal. I once shot a mule deer in the head with a 30-06 loaded with 180 grain CoreLokd bullets from about fifty feet, and the bullet didn't penetrate the skull...just zipped along the bone under the skin, though the entry and exit points were in a straight line through the skull...it wasn't a glancing blow. You couldn't duplicate that in ten-thousand tries, but my field report would be that a 30-06 CoreLokt wont penetrate a deers skull from fifty feet. While it did happen, it's useless information.
Quote from: Muskrat on July 03 2020 06:46:43 PM MDT
Quote from: 4949shooter on July 02 2020 04:00:20 AM MDT
I would like to see reports from real shootings in the field. This will tell if one round is advantageous over the other or not.
But I have to admit, the extra disruption to the hard cast bullet caused by the higher 10mm velocity bothers me.
I don't know...field reports are spectacularly random and entirely anecdotal. I once shot a mule deer in the head with a 30-06 loaded with 180 grain CoreLokd bullets from about fifty feet, and the bullet didn't penetrate the skull...just zipped along the bone under the skin, though the entry and exit points were in a straight line through the skull...it wasn't a glancing blow. You couldn't duplicate that in ten-thousand tries, but my field report would be that a 30-06 CoreLokt wont penetrate a deers skull from fifty feet. While it did happen, it's useless information.
Which is why we don't use anecdotal evidence. We need a suffucient amount of data to present the proper picture.
So how many field reports do you need before they're not anecdotal? I trust standardized, reproducible experiments infinitely more than field reports...dinner plates need not be included.
10, 20, 30..... The more the better.
The one example we have of a Buffalo Bore 9 mm stopping a brown bear is anecdotal. As we both know, ten more shootings of Brown bears with 9mm pistols won't show the same result.
While I am not one to say that muzzle energy kills, I do trust physics.
More muzzle energy means more ability to do damage. Whether or not that occurs is a function of bullet design. The 9mm is being touted right now because two decades of focus have been placed on optimizing bullet design to it's performance envelope. If that same effort were placed in 10mm, or 45 ACP, or 7.62 nagant, you would see benefits there as well.
The 45 ACP, and it's 45 Long Colt predecessor, had well earned reputations as solid defensive round because they had enough frontal area to make use of 400 lb-ft of energy regardless of bullet design. A good design like a SWC or flying ashtray enhanced that.
The liability, IMHO, of the 10mm is it's power. It requires and experienced and regularly practiced shooter to make consistent, fast hits with full power ammo.
As far as how many samples, I just asked my daughter her thoughts. She has a BS in Stats, and her response for a large pool of events was 150. More is better but she was confident you could have a normal sample with 150 random examples.
150 credible reports from people using a $2.20 boutique 10mm round in the field...that'll take a little time :)). It's a moot point to me, as I refuse to buy anything from a convicted wildlife poisoner (Tim Sundles), and I've yet to see any need for a monolithic copper bullet, unless lead bullets are not legal in a particular area. Now if someone was offering a depleted uranium bullet...that would be interesting ;).
Lol 😀
150 reports would be great, but I agree we aren't going to get there anytime soon. Though I would like to see more shootings as 10mm and Underwood ammo and other boutique ammo manufacturers' products become more widely used. 10 or 20 shootings as mentioned would help. One shooting from a 9mm HC round is not enough. Expense is a consideration, as well as other factors, including case room for powder I agree.
What will I choose to carry in the end. I don't know. Right now I have Extreme Defender and coated hardcast both from Underwood. Both ammunition types have been tested in my carry guns (Glock 20 and 40). I am at the moment comfortable with either choice.
Great job on the discussion.
I got a 40 S&W conversion barrel for practice with more "available" 40 ammo. But seems I find more 10mm now a days than 10mm.
Quote from: Roguer on July 14 2020 12:28:02 PM MDT
I got a 40 S&W conversion barrel for practice with more "available" 40 ammo. But seems I find more 10mm now a days than 10mm.
And I am finding avaliable 10mm cheaper or as cheap as .40 right now. Crazy but for these prices I would rather shoot 10.
Absolutely 😀
Quote from: Roguer on July 14 2020 12:28:02 PM MDT
I got a 40 S&W conversion barrel for practice with more "available" 40 ammo. But seems I find more 10mm now a days than 10mm.
. I cant think of a much better reason to start reloading and maybe even casting your own ammo/bullets! ;D ;D ;D
NEVER a concern for me on ammo costs. Costs me about the same to shoot ANY HANDGUN ammo. Cause I load and cast. Primers dont know if they go in a 9mm or 32 acp or 40 S&W! Same for powders.... Red dot burns same in 2g in 32 as does 6g in the 40... Not being a SA here. Its all about becoming more self reliant.
CW
CW
I agree on the reloading, though I don't cast. For the price of a conversion barrel and a thousand rounds of ammo, a person could be completely set up for reloading, cranking out rounds for the price of the primer, powder, and lead. A 10mm range round costs me about fifteen cents, and with some trial and error I've got a list of recipes that are much more accurate than anything I can buy off the shelf.
I can reproduce $1.25 boutique loads for less that fifty-cents, and with minimal trial and error I've developed rifle loads that are vasty more accurate than anything I can buy off the shelf, and less than one-third the price.
For the life of me I can't figure out why I didn't start reloading twenty years before I did. I guess I was intimidated by the complexity, not realizing that it's actually quite simple. I was afraid of making a mistake and blowing up my gun, not realizing that if you follow one of the many published recipes and are attentive to what you're doing, that just isn't going to happen. Then I thought I needed a progressive press and I didn't want to make that investment... I didn't realize that while progressive presses are nice, they're far from necessary, even if you reload a thousand rounds a month.
As a reloader I shoot five times more than I did before reloading, and that includes the years when the sheriff paid for the ammo. Just this afternoon I took my shot timer and my Glock 35 out back and practiced my "quick draw" for steel challenge. It was a short session...less than an hour...but I shot 240 rounds. A good afternoon plinking session that combines disciplined practice with some fun-gunning can be 700 rounds to start with, and possibly double that if it's both a pistol and carbine session. Recovering brass is made easier by laying out a tarp and staking it down against the wind. It only takes a minute, and it catches most of the brass.
Any serious shooter who isn't reloading is either spending a lot more on shooting than they need to, or shooting a lot less than they could be.
That said, I enjoy reloading...even the monotonous cranking out the thousands and thousands of rounds of USPSA loads that make up a summer's shooting schedule. Someone who didn't enjoy the process and wasn't trying to maximize accuracy would not be well served by reloading, as you can probably make more money mowing lawns than you can save by reloading, hour to hour.
Plus, at least for me, reloading is therapeutic, my wife knits, and I make bullets, Lol, stinken old people 😀
other than all the afore mentioned benefits of reloading, I just enjoy doing it. at times when I can't get out and go shooting, I can get my "gun fix" by loading ammo.
ABSOLUTELY!! Im in my loading room DAILY!!! Its ABSOLUTELY MY THERAPY!
Its MY time in MY PLACE. Many times My lil doggie joins me in her bed in the corner and occasionally My wife will read in the chair beside the dog bed.
CW