Has anyone else been approached by someone who was anti-gun rights that now wants to know where and how fast they can get a gun? I'm a little torn on this issue. My advice thus far has been if you don't have any experience or training, now is not the time. I will gladly introduce them to shooting once this is over. Where I'm torn is a small piece of me wants to say, "screw you," you've voted against our rights in the past.
On the plus side, I've seen a couple of articles describing online gun dealers having to explain to potential customers that you can't just order a gun and have it delivered to their house, regardless of what politicians/anti-gunners have told you. Perhaps the silver lining here is that some will receive an education on this and end up with a greater understanding of our firearms laws.
It's not in my nature to turn away people asking for help. But I'm not going to help anyone become a greater danger to themselves or others, either.
Any thoughts are appreciated.
They just want to protect their TP hoard. :))
Giving guns to untrained, that would be more dangerous
Exactly, and that's why I'm struggling with this a little. Partly, I'm thinking why would I volunteer to teach these people to shoot later when I'm starting to feel they're too stupid. On the other hand, more people who are educated in the realities of firearms benefits all of us. I think I'm going to have to reevaluate my thoughts on some people based on their current behavior.
I would point them to most expensive gun store in town.
I'd tell them go buy a can of bear spray. They'll be infinitely safer, as will the rest of us.
I suppose you'd know this Graybeard, but I figured a level headed reiteration was worth it. How they bring up the subject is key.
In my view it comes down to a judgement on your part - are they sincerely looking for help to protect themselves and their family long-term? Or are they panicked looking for a quick fix to a problem they don't fully comprehend?
In the latter case, turn them down but direct them to a local store to take a training course, and caution them against any kind of rash action.
If they're sincere and you're willing to devote the effort, start with safety first and impress on them the responsibility they take on if they start down this road. They need to be comfortable with a firearm and its necessary implications before they buy one. If they're genuine, they'll be willing to be patient and eager to learn.
Here's a good article on TFB posted today on the safety topic.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/03/17/new-gun-safety/
Keiichi, you've hit the nail on the head. It's the panicked, short term solution thing that's causing me to pull back. I've basically taken the position that you described. Unfortunately, I've been getting emails the last few days that most of the ranges in my area have cancelled their classes.
The thought of a new group of gun owners that became so out of panic and only have the owners manual and movies/TV for experience is a bit disconcerting. Perhaps we should all take a look at our friends and acquaintances when the coronavirus panic is over. Encourage those that became first time gun owners to fully understand the safety and competency aspects and become proper members of the firearm community. Perhaps also encourage those without the right mindset to give up the idea, as well.
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Saw something to this effect the other day.
In general I invite them over, show them a variety of guns and they end up deciding on a Glock 19 in most cases.
Which is odd, cause I push the surplus Jericho 941's that are on gunbroker right now for $325, or the Beretta 81's that are about $200 now.
:)
So some of you feel mandatory training should be required to own a gun?
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I think of firearms training like seat belts and helmets. You are kinda stupid if you don't, but the Gubment shouldn't make you.
Quote from: Mike D on March 18 2020 12:39:27 PM MDT
So some of you feel mandatory training should be required to own a gun?
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Nope, not sure where you got that impression. I think if you're not willing to take the proper steps to ensure your own competency with firearms, they're probably not a good idea for that person. Anything mandatory has the potential to involve political goals.
Well...The ammo hoarding is starting:
(http://fellingfamily.net/images/hoardingAmmo1.jpg)
and the above is why all here should reload....
Our local Fleetfarm was very low the other day too...good thing I have a ton already 😀
Quote from: tommac919 on March 19 2020 10:12:23 AM MDT
and the above is why all here should reload....
I have been digging out all the brass I have laying around and will be spending a fair bit of the weekend running my version of a "one arm bandit".
Is it considered hording if I did it before the panic?
Not as far as I'm concerned 😀😀😀
Hoarding before the crisis, as I recall, is called "being prepared". Unless the media finds out in which case you are a "gun nut".
The wife and I stopped at Cabelas the other evening. The parking lot was PACKED. I mean full as can be. But when we walked in, not a customer in sight. Clothing department and check out lines were completely empty. We made our way to the firearms department, as we were there to buy ammo, and soon found everyone. Could barely walk. The line to see guns must have had 200 people in it. Couldn't even move in the ammo aisles. Grabbed some Sig 10mm they had available and a big box of 22lr. No 9mm or .380 or much of anything else. But they were selling guns like mad.
I saw a story out of Vegas showing a gun store completely cleaned out. They had like five old used 22 rifles but nothing else on the walls or in the cases. Amazing times.
And preppers were kooks. 8)
Let the anti-gun people sweat out these tense times. DemocRATs want to take away our guns when times are good but when things turn to sh*t they have no problem with owning guns. They can't have it both ways.
Let the democRATs feel what it's like to be unarmed when others just might want to steal what they have. And we haven't even gotten to the worst times.
And they are coming, no question about it
Darn were stuck in FL with only 2 rifles and 4 handguns. A few hundres 9mm, couple hundred 10mm and brass for a 100 more, a shotgun and one box of birdloads. Everything else is back in the PR of MD.
Wife bought a nostalgia rifle here, a Savage 99, 303 Savage and cant even take it home due to overerly leftist MD legislature. Maybe its a curio since there is no ammo made anymore?
Went by the Rural King a few days ago and their 9mm shelves were bare also 556. Lotsa people looking at handguns, but in this store there are always alot looking.
I think is particularly funny that "gun experts" have been advising people to stick with common calibers...9mm and 5.56 especially...because there will always be ammo for them. Now, those are the calibers that you can't find anywhere at any price.
I also think that while it's prudent to be armed, there's a real limit to what's useful, and people are wasting time and resources stockpiling weapons instead of food, water, medicine and board games. There is no logical reason to forecast anarchy or the complete failure of the state, and protracted gun battles with roving packs of predatory thugs are not something I see as a realistic scenario...though I guess some neighborhoods are more dangerous than mine. Regardless, having more ammo than you have magazines for provides very little in the way of actual security.
I called my brother who's in home-quarantine in the Bay and asked him if he needed ammo. Turns out he's got 100 rounds, which is plenty. Given who he is and where he lives, if 100 rounds isn't enough then he's just not going to make it, and another thousand rounds isn't going to make one lick of difference. I think that's true for most people.
And BTW, not all left wing democrats are anti-gun. My brother is a professor at one of the most liberal universities in the country...hell, in the world, and when I asked him if he wanted the S&W 659 that didn't fill a niche for me he said ya...that'd be great. Doesn't accomplish anything valuable to lump people together based on one aspect of who they are, in my experience anyway.
Sorry I struck a nerve Muskrat. I would gladly confirm that all left wingers are not anti gun rights. But all the anti gun rights folks certainly seem to be left wingers.
Ha! I am not reloading hundreds of rounds because I need them. There is just nothing else to do that interests me. Craig >:(
Muskrat, generally I agree with your sentiment. We should be striving to maintain or re-institute rule of law and organized society, not hastening chaos and violence.
I do think there are a couple of valid reasons to stockpile some amount of ammo, though. One, in the event of a run on ammo like we're seeing, I want to still have the ability to train regularly. Having 1000 rounds of my defensive calibers ensures I can train for many months without feeling the shortage. Two, in the event things do unfortunately go south for an extended period, ammunition can be a very valuable trading commodity.
I don't think it makes sense to panic and horde, but I do see value in having a moderate backstock (bought during normal times) so I don't have to care if others do.
No need to apologize Graybeard, it's not really a nerve. I just think that defining people as "left" or "right" is simplistic and divisional and ultimately counterproductive to everyone. It's an easy trap to fall into, but I've yet to see a trap that was worth the cheese.
I think a lot of people who are now interested in guns were never anti-gun, just gun-neutral. They never saw a need for one, never really wanted one, never gave it much thought. That politicians they may have supported were not "pro-gun", for lack of a better definition, wasn't even a part of their decision matrix. It just wasn't on their radar.
Some will crucify them for that, but the philosophy that If You're Not With Us You're Against Us is among the lowest forms of bullying...right down there with name-calling and stereotyping. In my experience, bullying is the refuge of people who cannot support their viewpoint any other way.
If someone who was previously uninterested in firearms now has some interest, then great. Maybe a little too little and a little too late on their end, but probably not. Probably there will be plenty of guns and ammo and ranges available in a few months, and those people might go from being gun-neutral to gun-interested or even gun-positive.
Just my opinion, of course.
Another good video today from Hickok45 that can be a resource for new gun owners.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Efw9Dy0r08
Quote from: Muskrat on March 23 2020 05:13:08 PM MDT
No need to apologize Graybeard, it's not really a nerve. I just think that defining people as "left" or "right" is simplistic and divisional and ultimately counterproductive to everyone. It's an easy trap to fall into, but I've yet to see a trap that was worth the cheese.
I think a lot of people who are now interested in guns were never anti-gun, just gun-neutral. They never saw a need for one, never really wanted one, never gave it much thought. That politicians they may have supported were not "pro-gun", for lack of a better definition, wasn't even a part of their decision matrix. It just wasn't on their radar.
Some will crucify them for that, but the philosophy that If You're Not With Us You're Against Us is among the lowest forms of bullying...right down there with name-calling and stereotyping. In my experience, bullying is the refuge of people who cannot support their viewpoint any other way.
If someone who was previously uninterested in firearms now has some interest, then great. Maybe a little too little and a little too late on their end, but probably not. Probably there will be plenty of guns and ammo and ranges available in a few months, and those people might go from being gun-neutral to gun-interested or even gun-positive.
Just my opinion, of course.
Sadly, defining most people as left or right is the reality we live in. For my entire life there has been that division and it has been drawn over the same two issues, gun rights and abortion rights. It's an unfortunate political manipulation that often forces people to vote against their own interests in other areas over those two things. Gun rights people have few, if any, options on the left since John Dingell died and abortion rights people have the same from the right.
I'm not suggesting a "If You're Not With Us You're Against Us" mentality. I've spent much of my adult life introducing new people to shooting sports and continue to do so. Make friends not enemies has always been my plan. I think we're both on the same thought process, perhaps just bogged down by terms.
I find the difference betweem the 2 parties is more then 2 issues. I know people that think the Republican party is all about big business. And others that vote mostly about ecology and savings the planet. I vote to the right mostly about 2A rights. But disagree over many other things the party stands for. If I want to know what a democrat or a rebublican think or believe. I don't ask there oposition. It is about like asking a man to explain how women really think and feel. It is out of my realm.
I should have said the two most consistently recurring issues. Yes, there are always more differences, but those two never seem to go away. Others seem to drop by the wayside. They've been a constant in every election since I can remember because of the way they motivate people.
I also think it's the parties that drive these divides. Many of you may not know of (D)John Dingell. He as about as left as one can be when it came to social programs, union support, etc. But he never voted for gun control, ever. Lots of UAW workers in his district, many hunters/shooters, and Dingell was himself. He was always going to win his seat in the House, so he couldn't be forced by the party to go after gun rights.
After his death, his wife ran for his seat. She won and immediately reversed course on gun rights. She was a weaker candidate and needed party support. I think the leadership of both parties have made it clear which side of the two previously mentioned issues candidates haveto be on to get into office.
Just my 2 cents.
About the only thing I agree with the Republican platform about is 2A. But it is also the most important issue to me at vote time.
I think the farthest left and farthest right are the ones that get the presses air time. And people ending up believing that is what the parties are all about. Which can end up causing divides which the moderates have to contend with. The progessives and the tea party are not the majority but they get the presses attention. And people believe that is what the party is all about.
Quote from: sqlbullet on March 19 2020 10:39:20 AM MDT
Quote from: tommac919 on March 19 2020 10:12:23 AM MDT
and the above is why all here should reload....
I have been digging out all the brass I have laying around and will be spending a fair bit of the weekend running my version of a "one arm bandit".
I have never thought of my press as a "One arm bandit". Dang funny. :D
Now, I will chuckle each and every time.
I wonder how much the pandemic death tole is going to increase due to tens of thousands of people rushing out to buy their VERY FIRST GUN, with no oversight, training, or mentoring. In my law enforcement career I saw many more accidental shootings than self-defense shootings. Suicides vastly outnumbered both combined.
I've had those same thoughts. Unfortunately, those potential issues will outlast the pandemic. Once this is over, I think the experienced firearms owners of the world need to need to offer up some assistance to these folks. At the very least it saves on the bad press and it may save someone's life.
Muskrat, as someone who has seen some horrible deaths up close, I'm sorry that you had to respond to those situations as part of your job. I know it takes a toll on one. Thanks for what you do, or did.
So I was in an ag store that sell sporting good and firearms yesterday and heard one of the sales guys talking to an other person about not wanting to sell to some of the people he said the only good news is he was out of ammo so they bought the gun but have me ammo[emoji16]
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Quote from: Graybeard on April 03 2020 09:12:43 AM MDT
I've had those same thoughts. Unfortunately, those potential issues will outlast the pandemic. Once this is over, I think the experienced firearms owners of the world need to need to offer up some assistance to these folks. At the very least it saves on the bad press and it may save someone's life.
Muskrat, as someone who has seen some horrible deaths up close, I'm sorry that you had to respond to those situations as part of your job. I know it takes a toll on one. Thanks for what you do, or did.
Thanks for the kind words Graybeard...cops don't get thanked a whole lot. I'm lucky... I went into law enforcement in my mid thirties, after I'd pretty much already formed my impression of the world and the people in it. I felt real sorry for recruits who got into it in their early twenties, before they had seen enough to form an impression of the world outside the law enforcement lens. If the world you see in law enforcement is real world to you, it's very hard to be a balanced, positive, rational person. Lots of younger recruits quit in less than a year, and I always thought "good for you" when they hung it up.
Last week I taught a sixty-year-old man to shoot. He'd never even held a gun before. He still can't hit a garbage can at 20 yards with any regularity, but he knows to keep his finger off the trigger until on target, and he knows where the muzzle is pointing at all times. He might very well never hold a gun again, which is fine. But if he does, it won't go off accidentally and hit something important. I feel good about that.
You're welcome Muskrat. I've had two LEOs in the family. One did the high school/army/LEO route and the other became an LEO later in life. I know, exactly, the difference you're referring to. Unfortunately, the former had the "us and them" mentality for quite awhile. He fought a lot, only had other cops as friends, etc. The latter had the type of personality that just won most people over without becoming a confrontation.
FWIW, I've been teaching a female friend and neighbor to shoot for a little over a year. She's 61, never owned or shot a gun before. Her husband has, but has no interest. She now has a concealed pistol license, owns her own gun and is looking to buy a .22 in the same platform. :D At 25', she's actually pretty good. Just started teaching an acquaintance, 62 yr old male, to shoot handguns, before the pandemic hit. He's got quite a bit of rifle experience. Sadly, someone introduced him to handguns with a snubbie .357 and a .44 mag. Which leads me to the next point.
I am often told by people that wish to learn to shoot handguns that on their one prior experience they were given thoroughly unpleasant guns to shoot. Too many women were handed ultralight .38 snubbies with +P loads and told "this will be perfect for you." Make it fun for new shooters, regardless of age. Get the fundamentals down with something that doesn't build in a flinch with the first mag/cylinder. Seems like it should be an obvious course of action to me, but I've heard of too many experiences where that wasn't the case.
For sure, whenever I take out a first time shooter, I introduce them to the .22, if the enjoyed it, I give them an opportunity with a 9
Ken